Part 1 – Victoria Residence, British Columbia, Upper Floor

Brad W

John – Can you post this image in a larger scale comparable to last week’s image? Thanks….

Brad W

John – I stretched this image in Paint to enlarge the image size. Problem solved…

John Y

This is an interesting challenge — I’m not really sure how to approach the dormer problem. How much space can we really make usable with a dormer? It sounds like you expect to be able to recapture some percentage of the space off to the sides, but I’m not 100% sure how to proceed to that end. I guess, if nothing else, getting a foot or two so that it’s tall enough to hang clothes in is a start.

That also brings up the question of cost: are dormers or other structural changes to the roof an avenue worth lengthy pursuit, or are they likely to be out of budget, so we should be designing with that constraint in mind?

Leo

Hello everyone

Just a few more notes. The closet in the west facing bedroom is only about 14 inches deep, so it is not functional.

John Y, regarding the dormer situation, the roof has to be replaced, which mitigates the cost of the dormer significantly. I don’t know what the costs are, but have been told that given the scope of the renovation that is already required, it is not unreasonable. The dormers can be extended the full length of the house if required, but I’m not sure what that would do to the external appearance of the house.

Leo

Oh, one thing I forgot to add on the wishlist (John, I’m sure you have clients doing that all the time) is laundry on this floor if possible.

Paul C

[img]1_upper.jpg[/img]

John,
My apologizes if I am getting overly technical, but would it be possible to update the upper floor drawing such that it includes the outline of the main floor where it does not align with the upper? Can we assume that the upper floor “floor” beside the main bath continues to the outside wall and that the space is within the roof space/attic? What is the height of the ceiling where it is flat?

Brad W

[img]shweek261.jpg[/img]

Once again, to start the ball rolling…I am using my concept from last week to expand the space for a master at the back. Many of the other rooms are largely unchanged. The roof need only be changed at the back. Saves money and preserves the curb appeal. The back is more modern…

John Brown

Leo,
Thanks for the reminder about the laundry – I was just about to film tomorrow’s segment and I am glad you mentioned it early enough for me to incorporate it into my design.

John Brown

Paul,
Leo might be able to add some clarification. We are working on the plans provided by the floor plan company used by realtors. The interiors are always very accurate but they don’t tend to reconcile the two floor plans very often. I think you should just make the assumptions you think are best and most logical.

James Scott

Good morning Team Slow Home.

Leo – Would you be against having the Master bedroom on the main floor?

leo

Paul

With respect to your questions: I believe that the area east of the bathroom is attic we can reclaim. The area above the laundry on the first floor that bumps out into the back yard has a roof on it. Also, I doubt if it can structurally support an additional floor on top of it, so you can assume that it does not exist on the second floor. The box window on what is currently the dining room on the west side is only a box window and not floor space.

James, regarding the main floor master, our preference is to have all the bedrooms up. We still have kids who wake in the night and will for the next couple of years.

leo

Hi Brad

Interesting idea with a shared bedroom. I personally am not opposed to “dormatory” living for the kids. I think it would be fun for them, especially if you leave an option for partitioning later when they become teenagers. In fact, at their current age, I think it would be fun for all three kids to share a room if it were big enough. (My wife would probably disagree with me.)

You’ve done a nice job on the ensuite. We have no need for a soaker tub; a larger shower is preferable as you have done. We currently have a soaker tub and it is being used to store an exercise ball that we don’t use.

John Brown

Brad,
I appreciate the strategy of restricting the exterior changes to the back. If the main floor is extended out then there is room for the master at the back. The key question is whether the kids would be happy sharing the front bedroom now and in the future.

Terri

Re: upper and lower floor reconciliation.

I’m willing to bet that the box window on the main floor has its own roof and ditto for the back add-on. The “dead” space next to the bathroom, I can’t be sure of, but it seems best to assume it can’t be used.

Like Leo and John Y, I question how a dormer at the front will affect the curb view. Wouldn’t there have to be a further box window or such to give some kind of appeal?
Leo, can you possibly give us an idea of what it looks like now?

leo

Paul

regarding ceiling height; I think you asked this last week and I forgot to answer. The ceiling on the main floor is 9 feet and the upper floor is 8′ 3″ at its peak.

leo

Terri

The house is a basic box currently. There is little in the way of relief on the house. I don’t describe houses well, but from a mathematical perspective, it is a box with a simple triangular prism roof. The two side bedrooms have small dormers to maintain their height. Our plan was to deroof these dormers and extend them down the length of each side of the house in a shed style dormer. It probably would not extend to the very edges of the house for style reasons, but because my design sense is nearly non-existent (I love this site for ergonomic, not style reasons) I won’t comment further on that aspect.

leo

[img]dormer1.jpg[/img]

Here is roughly the current dormer style

leo

[img]dormer.jpg[/img]

I couldn’t find a good picture of a large shed dormer. Here is a composite dormer with a gable in the middle of it. It gives and idea of what we are thinking

John Y

This site has some good illustrations of different styles of dormers (and some illustrations of badly-designed ones, too):

http://www.servicemagic.com/article.show.Design-Dormers-by-Design.13706.html

I was thinking that the extended shed-style dormer is the way to go. But the question becomes: front or back? I lean towards extending it to the back, but can be convinced either way.

Louis Pereira

JohnY,

Great find!…The actual PDF version of this article can be found at the following link…from jlconline.com an excellent resource on traditional construction methods.

http://www.jlconline.com/cgi-local/view.pdf/7635506796a0054ad4bac0db28041427/www.jlconline.com/cgi-bin/jlconline.storefront/4a8c4212058756a727170a32100a060e

Louis Pereira

[img]09081701.jpg[/img]

i thought it might be a worthwhile exercise to prepare this graphic showing today’s Demo JPG (black) on top of the main floor of John’s completed concept design from last week (gray).

Jim H

Are you replacing the weather barrier (shingles) or the enitre roof structure. If you are replacing the structure, why not frame exterior full hght walls and create a full second floor? Your floor deck is already in place. Might be worth researching cost and local restrictions.

Brad W

Leo, by modifying only the back of the home you can address the kitchen, the master bedroom and the upstairs baths. My advice is to try and leave as much of the remaining house intact and stay in budget.

The shared bedroom in my previous post can be divided down the middle when the kids are older. I also thought the kids would enjoy being together and it helps keep the reno costs down.

Louis – nice job aligning the floor plans – that is what I was aluding to at the beginning of the day – thanks…

Terri

[img]vicreno31.jpg[/img]

I’ve been off trying an approach where the east bedroom’s door is not at the top of the stairs, which meant moving it to the other side of the room.
One bathroom (master) is in the same area as the present main bath, but the laundry and main bath are now on the west side (I assumed my most recent reno plan with kitchen on west.)

There are two variations on the front space (north). I’ll send them separetely.

Terri

[img]vicreno32.jpg[/img]

In the interest of a fairly egalitarian bedroom distribution, I didn’t give the fourth (northeast) bedroom the fun little jog and instead created an open games area for all the kids to enjoy.

I realize that this makes the 4th bedroom a little smaller though.

Terri

Sorry, forgot to mention that I kept that flue from my natural gas fireplace unit downstairs (between living & family rooms).

leo

Hi Terri

That’s a nice job. What I especially find interesting is that except for the closet of the front west bedroom, the entire plan is achievable without modifying the existing roofline. You’ve done a nice job situating toilets and beds in the low areas. The only sink that is in a low area is the master sink, and the pony wall there is taller than in the other areas (hence the indent in the floor plan)

Terri

[img]vicreno33.jpg[/img]

Hi Leo,

I wasn’t being so careful with my plan to match up the slanted ceilings with fixtures, so we’ll have to chalk it up to sheer luck! That west bedroom could maintain a closet under the west sloping wall, and the bed would then have to have its head on the south wall.

Now, on to my next plan, which is maintaining the master bedroom at the front. This time the master bedroom remains in roughly the same place, but like last time, I’ve moved the family bathroom over to the west side.

John Brown

Terri,
Three very nice plans. I am surprised that, with all of the comments today, more people haven’t submitted concept plans. Thank you for being so prolific.

I really like the way to created a passageway to the master en-suite that runs beside the windows. This could be a really lovely experience and is a nice way to deal with the closet. I also like the way the second scheme brings natural light into the hallway.

Leo

Hi Terri

I think this new variant shows one of the difficulties I had with this plan: the short distance between the stairwell landing and the south wall. It makes things tight, rendering that south east bedroom usable, but slightly smaller than is preferred. Still, overall a very workable plan.

Terri

[img]1_vicreno33.jpg[/img]

I hadn’t thought too much about the sloped ceilings when I did that plan, as I was thinking more about traffic patterns. As for that west bedroom closet, it could still be inserted along the west wall, under the sloped ceiling. The head of the bed would then go on south or east walls.

This time around I kept the master at the front, so that bathroom is still roughly in the same location. I’ve put the main bath and laundry back on the west wall again. I’ve changed more of the glazing too–pretty much every room has either a bigger window or a repositioned one.

Terri

I might add that the laundry room in my plans would benefit greatly from either a skylight or lighttube.

Terri

I see I didn’t lose my first comments when I submitted plan 3 above (I’d gone back to check the demo and on return seemed to have lost my first response), so anyway, I apologize for the repeated submissions.

John,
Thank you for your feedback. Yes, I rather thought I’d like that naturally lit space between bedroom and bathroom (so I did it again for plan 3). But opening up the staircase completely also appealed to me in the first plan.

I’m guessing that many Slow Home contributors are enjoying these last days of summer holidays. But possibly tomorrow’s post from you will bring more ideas out to play here.

Grace

Very nice plans, Terri. I especially like the game room plan. It lets the upstairs breathe a bit.

Constructability

Hello All,
Personally, I believe that extending the dormer scheme to the front of the home would drastically alter the front facade, and it’s relation to the existing streetscape. I am highly in favor of retaining the front look of the house, even it it results in a smaller upstairs space. If additional room is required, I suggest adding to the back of the structure. If we ‘dormer out’ the entire front of the house, would it not loose some of the character that attracted the owners to the home in the first place? Just a thought….

John Y

“I’m guessing that many Slow Home contributors are enjoying these last days of summer holidays.”

I wish. I’ve spent most of the day staring at a deadline — which gives me enough time to pop in once or twice and leave a drive-by comment, but no time to sketch plans of my own.

Also, I’m inclined to agree with Constructability regarding a preference for dormers at the back rather than the front. However, I think a careful design could allow for dormers to the front of the house while maintaining an attractive exterior.

MichaelG

[img]shweek26mg1.jpg[/img]

hmmm, summer holidays would be nice…

Here’s my first go. It is a challenge Leo!
I took some liberties with the rear of the house, extending it a bit to make that space a bit more usable, and as a side, adding a bit of shelter to the ground floor deck, or extending the ground floor out too. I imagine this as raising the roofline to full height to the back of the house extending to the dormers, but leaving the front of the house under the existing roofline. The front two bedrooms will be interesting for kids, slopped roofs, recessed beds, crawl in robes. I think it would be fun. May not age well though…
I made the landing a bit larger, it can be an open play area aging into an open study area, and pocket doors into the bathroom and laundry. I also stole someones idea from a few weeks ago of a door from the master closet to the laundry (cant remember whos idea it was, sorry!).
But I’m not sure if I like the closet and the bathroom on opposite sides of the master bedroom. If I have time, I might try to re-arrange that a bit. I’ll post it on tomorrows page. I also have a modification in mind using the existing footprint, and not extending the back. Again, tomorrow if I have time.

I’m really curious what John will come up with!

Leo

Michael

I suppose that it is nicer to have a washroom and closet close together, but it is not critical. I agree with your assessment of the front rooms. The kids would love it, but it probably would not age as well. Also, by leaving the closets as they are, it does make access to their full length difficult. Mostly our kids would use them as hiding places.

While we generally regard halls as wasted space, I do like how both you and Terri have attempted to keep the common area lighter and roomier.

There has been a fair amount of discussion regarding the front of the house and maintaining its original presence. I agree in principle. With this house, as I’ve said previously, there was not much curb appeal to begin with. However, I believe that the key is to avoid the appearance of maximizing the dormers such that the original roof line disappears. This is why despite everyone’s great suggestions, we will be hiring a designer as well.

Leo

In response to some earlier questions…

Jim H, we likely will not be replacing the whole roof structure due to cost and zoning considerations. We would exceed height restrictions to have a traditional house with a full height roof.

Brad, if we could get away with just redoing the back of the house, we definitely would. Unfortunately, so much needs to be replaced (electrical, plumbing, insulation, ducting) that we have to redo most ,if not all, of the house.

MichaelG

[img]shweek26mg2.jpg[/img]

Leo, how high it the wall of those closets in the front of the house? Thinking about it, my front two bedrooms might be able to grow with your kids if the beds are up against that low wall (if its high enough and they’re not in danger of hitting then head when they wake up), and put some deepish closets in the bed recess I made. See attached.

Making the hall larger can ‘reclaim’ that wasted space. Extend it a little bit and its a room, not just a through-way. Plus you get to keep an eye on your kids when they start to use the internet!
Im thinking of the Bangalore house from yesterday as a good recent example.

Terri

MichaelG,

I like this plan you’ve posted late yesterday. I like the entries into the three kids’ rooms and the way the closets are in that “iffy” edge-of-dormer space. Plus, having the open area at the top of the stairs is really great. I’d wanted to create an open space on the brighter south side, but there was less room there than on the north. But I didn’t think of the west side as you did! I also like the water closet in the main bath.

BTW, the laundry adjoing the master closet was my idea a couple of weeks ago. I seem to remember that someone felt there’d be too much humidity transferred into the clothes closet. But mine didn’t allow for a door between like yours does.

Leo

[img]2657cavendishoct0209a.jpg[/img]

Here is the main floor plan. we aren’t completely happy with the kitchen layout yet. We may decide to omit the shower in the washroom.

Notes about the kitchen: the kitchen window in the box out is a stained glass piano windoe which is about 5 feet high. The other windows in the kitchen reach quite low to about two feet off the ground; therefore the ones in the front of the house likely cannot be altered without significantly changing the look of the front.

Leo

[img]2657cavendishoct0209b.jpg[/img]

Here is the second floor plan. You’ll notice the wierd spaces between the walls of Bedroom #4 and the Master and Ensuite. These exist because of the way the dormers on the roof are structured; the dormer ends where the closet of bedroom 4 ends. We suspect that these spaces will be used for display shelving. They will be roughly 6 inches deep. We will likely incorporate some skylights as well: perhaps in the hallway and over the master bathtub.

Paul C

Leo,
Thank you for sharing these concept plans. I had to listen to John’s descriptions once more to reacquaint myself.

Main Floor
I congratulate you and your designer for accomplishing the openness you sought. I like that the kitchen is open to the rear yet still somewhat hidden such that the kitchen does not have to remain in a “magazine” state. The overall space where the kitchen resides could come off narrow so look for ways to emphasize the width. Such as glass doors on the upper cabinets or even open shelves instead of cabinets. Be careful not to allow the space between the island/peninsula and the box bay to become too tight. Maybe having the island open underneath will help enhance the openness within the kitchen. Maybe overly detailed at this level but…conventional fridges these days can be quite deep. The wall between the kitchen and stairs appears to be your standard 2×4 wall (3.5 inches thick). If possible, reframe the depth of the wall directly behind the fridge such that it will allow the fridge to be recessed and limit the amount it projects past the cabinets. You may want to consider swinging the study doors out such that they won’t impede on the study furnishing. If positioned just so, they could be left fully open resting on the hallway walls. Pocket or panel door(s) could be an alternate as well. Providing a small opening to the front entry from the kitchen really helps the circulation and completes the all too important main floor “circle route” required by most youngsters. Had I known there was a piano I would have submitted something different back when :-)

Upper Floor
It is interesting when comparing this concept to John’s demolition plan, it appears as though a good portion of the existing upper floor walls are to be maintained. Would combining the main bath and laundry present any advantages? Even though the existing master bath plumbing is on the left side of the plan, now that a guest bath is planned for the right side of the main floor, (which presumably would include a plumbing stack) could the master bath be flipped to the right side as well? Having the master walk-in closet on the left side may help reconcile what is going on with the dormer and bedroom 4. I presume, squaring off the rear of the home is not feasible, even within a sloping roof/ceiling?

Thanks again for the updates Leo.

Leo

[img]2657cavendishoct0209c.jpg[/img]

Front Elevation. We are wondering if we can box out the window in the kitchen to provide a small work area.

Leo

[img]2657cavendishoct0209d.jpg[/img]

Rear Elevation

Paul C

Leo,
Could you post all elevations?

Terri

Leo,
I’ve finally looked at your plans more closely. I’m wondering if you’re happy with the entry closet being so far away and that the back doors come straight into the dining area.
I seem to remember that storage was a big issue with you, and given your recent comments regarding children’s footwear, well, I can imagine this is still going to be an issue. (Time to train them to move their shoes themselves!)

I have friends who renovated their house to provide a big open plan kitchen at the back, and I noticed that they made sure the doors to the deck were away from the dining table because it’d become a huge issue with them running in for snacks or bathroom breaks or whatever and leaving a big mess on the floor next to the dining room table.

Just a friendly warning–that’s all!

Leo

Hi Terri

I guess there are always compromises that you make when you are renovating and not designing from scratch. The configuration chosen is further from the door than we’d like, although when you walk it out, it’s only a few steps. It was chosen to maximize the storage space and keep the washroom in a central but still unobtrusive space.

Your question about a rear closet is a good one, and it’s one we’ve debated back and forth. The hidden ace that we hold is that we envision the main rear entry for the kids to likely be through the basement. Again, not ideal (and who knows, perhaps not realistic) but a compromise. We may also try to have some outdoor storage for flip flops and such.

Leo

Hi Paul

I’ll post them. Please bear in mind that these are all still quite preliminary.

MichaelG

[img]picture1.png[/img]

Hi Leo, Re the kids shoes problem. The elevation shows a smallish high window in the front hall. Maybe you can consider a shoes closet under the window.
Shoe closets are a staple in any Japanese house (and other Asian countries where you need to take off your shoes). The attached example is very similar to the one in my house. The cabinetry under the window is just shelving for shoes.

Leo

Hi MichaelG

We are definitely “No shoes in the house” people. We will definitely be putting something under that window. Presently, we envision a bench with shoe storage underneath.

Terri

Leo,
I understand the compromise issue very well. I do like that unobtrusive powder room too, so your compromise was well-considered. I was thinking that a bench with shoe storage and even some hooks on the wall above might be in order.

Michael G,
Such a practical and beautiful solution. I wonder if the shoes are cleaned before they are stored in the cupboard.

leo

[img]1sm.jpg[/img]

Hi Paul C

Sorry, I never got back to your comments. The kitchen design is not finalized. I am debating putting the range/cooktop on the island. My concern is a lack of uppers for dishware as well as covered counterspace for small appliances. I don’t particularly like island cooktops as the venting is inefficient and tends to dominate the room; as well, it really interrupts the island as a workspace and you don’t have a backsplash to contain any cooking splatter.

I think your point about the fridge is well founded. We are going to get a counterdepth fridge. The wall behind it is a loadbearing 2×4. I’m not sure how much we can carve out of it.

We have thought about reversing the master bath and closet. I think its nice to not see the bed from the hallway. However, I think the room lays out more efficiently as laid out. Also, I think we gave into market pressure (show that I don’t really walk the walk) and chose to have a tub.

Squaring off the rear was also considered. We did want the master in the rear of the house, but in the end, it felt like we were fighting the original plan too much, and the cost was not worth it. Also, given the size of the house, I do find it a little offensive that we would consider the amount of space insufficient.

I am attaching some before photos. Right now, we are down to studs and starting to reframe the interior.

Leo

leo

[img]4sm.jpg[/img][img]5sm.jpg[/img]

These are the entrance and current living room.

leo

[img]6sm.jpg[/img][img]7sm.jpg[/img]

Two upstairs bedrooms

leo

[img]8sm.jpg[/img][img]13sm.jpg[/img]

The master bedroom and the other upstairs bedroom

leo

[img]9sm.jpg[/img][img]12sm.jpg[/img]

The “den” which will be converted to the great room, and the upstairs hall.

leo

[img]10sm.jpg[/img][img]11sm.jpg[/img]

The kitchen

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