03/03/10 – Toronto – Small Single Family

MollyK

Jenny,
You’re probably sleeping right now. I hope you get this message. I think some of your comments on Tuesday may have been addressed to me. I want to thank you for your honest candor and the information you provided. They say knowledge is power and I feel like I just got some of both!
Wouldn’t it be great to have more architects working on mass housing. Think about the personal and professional satisfaction that could come from providing innovative homes for “regular” working-class people. I am reminded of an assignment I had to do as a psychology major in undergraduate school. I had to “create” an office setting in which to see clients. Well, everyone in the class came up with some pretty fancy designs…leather chairs, high-end desk, wall art, rugs, etc. But what I found when I entered the work force after graduate school was something totally different. Small offices with 2 chairs, a desk, and no window. It was an eye-opener. My point is that most of us aspire to work with the elite…architects want high-end clients with deep pockets and posh settings and psychologists want large offices with a great view and clients with deep pockets. My question is what do you do when reality sets in…with respect to SlowHome philosophy my hope is that architects want to create livable spaces no matter what the setting.
I welcome you to share your experiences as often as possible. Your insight is invaluable to SlowHomer novices. Thanks again.

BradW

A couple of things…

Jenny – awesome rant…you gave perspective to the role and challenges faced by a developer, you outed architects as only interested in custom design (I always suspected that :)), you argued with the evil accountants and you gave a nod to the overwhelmed, undereducated home buyer all in one post…you made some very good points…I loved it

Floor plans – When looking at floor plans please note the ubiquitous “where grade permits” fine print…often you will find that the door from the garage into the back entry will not be possible or that the first step out your back door will be a 2-3 foot drop. Also, basements typically have columns (shown as black dots) traversing through the middle of what appears to be a nice open space. These columns can really limit the usefulness of a basement space.

Terri – You asked about Brampton…Yes, it was once farm land as was all the land surrounding Toronto. Brampton is no different really from any other community in the GTA – it is a middle class suburban nightmare of detached, semi-detached and low-rise townhomes which all look the same. These homes feature narrow lots with fenced in backyards not much larger than an office cubicle and a view of at least five other homes. Still we are lucky in so many other ways…

WWWTH Above – This plan is so typical of the crap that is being designed it is scary. But, Arista Homes, not to be outdone, have added the extra flourish of the 45 degree angle in almost every room. Congratulations for taking crap to a whole new level.

For me, I could careless about location, orientation, environmental performance…I just wish the designers (and accountants) could do a better job with a given site. There is just no excuse for most of the designs being done in the GTA.

MollyK

A quick overview: I imagine The Bradley as a dance…a really bad ballet. You want to believe at 2500+ sq. ft. this plan will delight you as would a ballet. You also hope that all the elements of the design will work together, flow smoothly, and produce a livable space similar to combination of great cast, story-line, and production of a ballet. What you get is 2 hours of torture if you’re at the ballet or a life-time of regret in The Bradley.
The fact is that all the elements in this plan work together but in a negative way. It is hard to separate them out and find the worst aspects. But I have tried to pull out my top 3 although each category may involve multiple elements.
1. Context…specifically the relationship between lot size and floorplan (the two main dancers in this ballet). If my measurements are correct (based on the combination of living room and dinette dimensions) the house is approximately 30′ wide and the lot, according to John and Matthew, is 38′ wide. Needless to say there are NO side yards to speak of and lack of natural light into the home is obvious. I wonder how deep the lot is…that will determine if a livable outdoor space can exist.
2. Organization…specifically, the 2nd floor family room in this plan is misplaced. With a large unfinished basement why would a designer put the family room on the 2nd floor consequently reducing the livable space in all the bedrooms. I believe the Master bedroom location (Ugh!)is a direct result of the family room’s presence on that floor.**
3. Entry/front hall…these elements (like extra dancers in a ballet) should create a good first impression (provide pleasant ambience) for what is to come. They simply fall flat…the entry is too large and the hallway too long. With only a tiny window in the foyer the walk to the back of the house will be dark and unappealing. Yes, nice artwork and lighting will help BUT this is not a loft. You assume a 2500+ sq. ft. house will have numerous windows throughout to provide light and a view of the outdoors. The “trek” to the back of the house adds insult to injury in an already narrow home plan.
**Let me qualify my thougths on 2nd floor living spaces. If no basement exists (as is true in my part of the US) and the floorplan can accomodate it, then a family room/tv room on the 2nd floor is fine. Kids need a place to retreat when parents entertain and teenagers need a hang-out area when friends come over. The room location is key because it should not interfere with sleeping areas. Placing it as far to one corner of the house as possible will reduce noise in the bedrooms. An area over the garage works nicely. Also, it does not need to be enormous…even a 12X14 would allow enough room for a small couch, 2 chairs and a t.v.

MollyK

BradW
Glad you brought up the “where grade permits” issue. I’m not sure if I posted the home I’m thinking about but I recall with 100% accuracy a floorplan I saw this week where the door from the garage to the house had that text beside it. I immediately looked around the garage for another entry into the house, but could not find one designated. Does that mean no garage entry at all, or will the door be placed elsewhere in the garage according to the grade? If grade doesn’t permit a door at all then you have to leave the garage and walk to the front door to get inside. Is it really possible for that to happen?
I salute the last statement in the comment you submitted.

BradW

One other note about the communities around Toronto – most, like Brampton, started as small villages and, therefore, have a “downtown”. Some of these are quite nice (Oakville comes to mind) but again nothing new is being built near them.

MollyK

Just finished watching John and Matthew’s review of The Bradley…I feel the sarcasm in me rising!
Matthew denounces the odd curve in the stairs…but don’t you think curves are ‘exotic’? Don’t you think a home buyer is going to feel a sense of grandeur from those stairs? The same can be said about the “extra flourish of 45 degree angles” mentioned by BradW. These angles are…grand, architectural features to so many home buyers. Surely, the angles indicate high quality craftsmenship.
AND the columns…Matthew, I sense you dislike the columns in the dining room, especially if they are designed with Baroque features. But Baroque screams “master of the castle” and you know every man’s home is his castle. If a house includes Baroque-inspired designs it has to be a good place to live, worth every penny.
Disclaimer…I don’t like or dislike any of these features per say. I’m really poking fun at the naivety of home buyers to place heavy importance on architectural features while being totally unaware of what elements truly matter in a efficient, livable home.

BradW

MollyK – If “grade does not permit” a door from the garage into the house then there will be no door and you will have to walk outside to the front entry. In some plans, the door from the garage into the house is an optional extra (there go those damned accountants again).

Mid America Mom

My main issues with this plan:
Organization

Entry. Runs forever and is not in scale to the home. Art Niche times two (oh, three if you go upstairs) anyone?

Kitchen- (add music) Lets do the twist! Oh baby lets do the twist… its goes like this…

MollyK

BradW.,
Please say it aint’ so (excuse the southern expression). You have got to be kidding me?! Honestly, if that is “single-family home” living then I’d rather live in a high-rise…at least you know what you’re getting. You wouldn’t try to kid yourself into thinking you’re in some suburban utopia. Most of these homes are glorified townhouses at best…someone just sliced a row of townhouses into their individual parts AND did not allow for additional land for much needed elbow room.

Mid America Mom

Jenny – what a rant. Thank you for feeling free to do so. This site is your “slow home”.

******************************************************************
The reality is more density is the future. A place is more walkable when not so spread out. I am not adverse to these narrow places if they can make them work. Feels like we are putting too many rooms in a 30ish wide lot.

Looking at the different homes here in TO I wonder if the developer says OK designer/architect we need to get these following rooms in this space: Living, dining, kitchen, family, 3bed 2.5 bath (walk in closet and ensuite master bath required) and a front load garage. I wish they explored a front of the home study more, a kitchen of at least WORKABLE space of 10 by 10 in the middle, second floor laundry, and a shared entry.

Narrow plans I think San Fransisco anyone? with the first floor being garage. I would take that over much of this. I would love to also explore bedrooms on the first floor and living in the spacious second. Anyone have thought on lower floor bedrooms?

thanks!

Murray

Thanks, Jenny, for your valuable information – the more we learn the more we know. It’s all about education. Do you agree that it looks pretty bad in TO? Is it better in Sydney?

The Bradley is not at all to my taste, but the biggest problem for me is the garage and the rest of the house is just a stack of dominoes after that. As an artist I do appreciate the art niches – they let the homebuyer know that they are supposed to budget for “art” in their lives also!

Back to the garage – we can’t all live downtown or within a walkable distance to necessities, and the majority of us are dependant on cars, even if one is only needed to travel to a public transportation hub.

The garage is a very prominent part of a modern house plan – in today’s case study it takes up approx. 1/3 of the footprint, and this is also the case in the majority of plans we have been looking at over the past few days. I think that suburban living pre-supposes the need for cars; I may be wrong, but it seems like the whole house is hinged around the garage: as if it was designed and located first, then the rest of the house plan had to fit in around it. I would much rather compromise my parking space than my living space.

Any double garage could really be a single car width, and any additional vehicles parked outside in the driveway or on the street. Sure weather is a factor, but tough – I’d rather have 12 more feet inside my house.

I was also thinking about carports at the side of the house, or even an enclosed garage. Many of the lots are narrow to begin with, so, rather than plunking the house down in the middle and giving two small side yards, why not have a slightly narrower house sit on one side of the property (I think this is called a zero lot line) and leave approx. 12 feet of side yard on the other to accommodate a single width parking space. Two cars can be parked one behind the other – again, sorry for the inconvenience, but I rather juggle cars than compromise my living space. Potential issues of light and orientation could possibly be mitigated with the parking to the side and in the right location.

The carport would be near the front of the property which could leave a nice side yard linking up to the backyard. Inside, rooms could have an orientation to this side yard as well as the back. Today’s case study has virtually no windows on either side of the house for privacy from the neighbours anyway.

Back alleys and separate garages are ideal in my opinion, but there are associated infrastructure costs, an impact on backyard size, and the total number of lots that can be developed.

Terri

Three worst things with this plan, IMO:
1. Location. I studied this development’s satellite image, and there was no creek as shown on the site plan–unless that dried-out brown track in a narrow half-brown gully is one. I don’t see any “views” of an escarpment, unless (as previously described). The roads don’t “meander” around here. This is a grid with a few curves thrown in at the edges. The walkscore is 0. Sure, you might walk to a park on the weekend, but the rest of the time, you’ll need the car. (Note: Derry Road–the Trails come off of this street–is a fairly busy country road with no sidewalks, which makes the sidewalks in Milton Trails kind of laughable.)

2. Organization. Two too-long hallways, up and down. As someone pointed out, it’ll be a long, dark walk into the home for everyone. The satellite image proves this: there are black shadows between all of these houses.

3. The living, dining, kitchen space is too chopped up and cramped as a result. Creating that formal dining room with its recessed window (obviously to create a tiny sense of space between you and the neighbour’s wall some feet away) is just a waste of space, especially since it’ll be so dark and it causes the living room to be squished in width. If the whole back end of this house were open living, we may forgive the long trek to get there (or maybe not if we don’t get a unit on Sundale Drive where the living area would face south).

I can’t help but add that I hate, hate, HATE where the laundry is.

Terri

M.A.M.
Most people like to have their living areas close to the ground for easy access outdoors. I live in a home with the living area on the second floor, but it’s built into a ridge so it’s a few steps down to ground level from the living area. The downside is trekking up a flight and a half of stairs with groceries, backpacks, etc. (No wonder my knees are giving me grief!)

Terri

Murray,
I appreciate you honing in on the garage debate. I agree that the garage is the issue here with the Bradley design–everything hinges from there. I also see that the garage is here to stay, even if not for the car, it’s useful as a workshop or large item storage. Since so many people end up with their vehicles not actually in the garage, it seems the time has come to return to the back alley access. Or else, separate the garage a bit and just put it out there at the front, allowing some private space behind for a little light and a sense of outdoors with a few plants. The walkway could be covered, if needed. In these narrow-width lots, though, it might not be much improvement…

MollyK

Terri,
Have you ever seen the movie “Home Alone”? The washer and dryer in the basement turns into an imaginary MONSTER every time the kid, Kevin, goes down to wash his clothes. That’s what I thought about when I read your comment on the laundry placement.
Murray,
I like your idea of a carport beside the house (IF the lot dimensions allow it). The design offers a covered entry into the house and also sets up the possibility for an outdoor living space on the side yard. You can make the carport look very nice with an arbor framing the entrance and potted slender evergreens flanking each side. WOW, that looks better already.

Mid America Mom

Hey Terri take a look at my plans from late yesterday. Attached rear garage with alley. In new construction.

Murray- how about the old fashioned detached garage at the rear of the property?

Mid America Mom

Oh MollyK- our next stop is a place that does not have basements- Dallas. On and off over the years we have thought of moving to that area or Houston. The extra family space on the second floor I can get used to easily. My main concern is the noise. How to minimize the noise.

Terri thank you for responding about the knees. Supposedly there is an increased demand for first floor masters (in with the living) in the states and that does not seem to be coming across the border. HUM… I would rather have a first floor bedroom with a 5 foot closet and easy access to a bath over a living/dining room I would hardly use, even if front facing.

MollyK

M.A.M.
I’ve seen many larger floorplans that put the Master suite on the first floor. In fact that is how my home is laid out. It works fine conceptually…but just like any room you want a good design. As for living spaces on the second floor…I can imagine if you have a great view you would enjoy this arrangement. I imagine the ocean or a mountain range or maybe even an exceptional city skyline (at night). What about reversing the floors? Put the kitchen, living, and dining room on the second floor IF you have an awesome view of, say, The Great Smokey Mountains (Eastern US)…
With regards to the discussion about Murray’s beef with the garage…I agree 100% with his criticism that the garage compromises the whole house. But we should think about WHY the garage is positioned in the front to begin with. Let’s face it, if the lot were wider the floorplan could accomodate a garage on the side!!! I feel strongly that these garages are the result of narrow lots. Go back to some of the developer’s websites and look at the site plans…narrow lots. Then look at the floorplans they offer…does anyone offer a floorplan with a garage that faces the side yard and doesn’t dominate the interior square footage? No? I found 1 developer in my search that did…ONE out of how many?!

MollyK

M.A.M
There are ways to reduce noise traveling to other areas from a second floor family room. Unfortunately, practically all of them must be done during construction of the home…which means you have a custom home, unlike what we’re scoring right now.
To dampen sound to a room below you can build the family room floor separate from the ceiling of the room below. In other words, you have a separate ceiling for the first floor room then a layer of insulation then the floor of the family room above.
For noise transference to an adjacent bedroom you can build a thicker wall between the two rooms. There is also a type of particle board (don’t know the name) that can be placed between the wall studs and the drywall that is specifically designed to dampen noise.
If you are building a home this kinda stuff is good to know.

Terri

M.A.M.,
Yes, I did look at your late plans from yesterday incorporating a back garage. I thought they were a bit better though that front space still gets a bit wasted with a fancy office (who really needs a bay window in a workspace anyway?) and a combined living/dining, supposedly “perfect for entertaining.” I’m really sick of those formal spaces (and I agree that I’d rather have a decent bedroom instead). On the other hand, that separate family room might not be so cozy with that cathedral ceiling, and then there’s the issue of noise coming upstairs when TV is going into the wee hours… Main floor masters are quite common here in Victoria, because of the demographics–lots of people over 45. It can be done, though not well on a skinny footprint.

Terri

MollyK,
I can relate to the Home Alone kid…I’ve had my share of dark basements for laundry. One was an old Depression-era, narrow-lot home where access was through a trap door in the floor with a steep, narrow set of stairs. Fortunately I was young–and childless, so not much laundry!

Terri

Molly K.,
Not sure, but I think the kind of board you’re suggesting for soundproofing may be cement-based, such as Anaconda (sp?). People who build basement suites have come up with a way to use this along with a T-bar (suspended) ceiling with added insulation to inhibit noise transfer between floors. I’ve used a double wall with insulation between a living room and bedroom and it worked very well.

Murray

I’m spending way too much time here, rather than doing what I am supposed to be doing – this is so much more interesting!

MAM – re: a garage at the back, if I understand what you are saying then does not the whole sideyard become a driveway? My idea of to-the-side-and-front parking areas would allow for a useable side yard.

I confess the house I grew up in had a carport, and the back of it was defined by a sizeable storage room with the door off the parking area (this might speak to Terri’s thoughts on storage and/or workshop).

Also, in context of this conversation, in my old neighbourhood all the lots were wider than deep – but that was back in the ’60s. Jenny’s info from yesterday indicated that her company strives for at least 70% private land in any development. This leaves 30% for roads, parks and other public use. For reasons both altruistic and less so I imagine a contemporary developer wants to get as many house in the alloted saleable area as is possible. This seems to dictate narrow lots rather than those that are wide.

Back to what I am supposed to be doing.

Mid America Mom

Comment: Found a development with a green builder North- here is my ranch! Almost walkable at 60 in this small town. The grocery is about .5 km away and the elementary school is right there (I used their address since none is provided). *You may want to check out their other developments.

In here they have different lot sizes but there are some 52 wide WITHOUT megasized homes on them. It is these lots where I am posting from today.

Ok in my happiness for a ranch that is not horrid I am forgiving them on the angles and size of the secondary bedrooms. We see , what did John call it last week when I asked about this L configuration , California modern? with the kitchen in one corner. Though this kitchen needs to be better designed :( What if I say no to a pantry? Would that be some strange hole? The back entry is horrible. Look at that space with the laundry (I think you need to be the size of a pancake).

Not too bad and it is not expensive. Next plan coming up…

Project Name: Lindsay Cloverlea- Seton

Size: 1543

Project Address: 51 Angeline Street South Lindsay, ON

Project URL: http://www.masonhomes.ca/communities/Lindsay/floorplan.cfm?modelid=33

Slow Home Test Score: 14

Mid America Mom

Comment: Another ranch from Mason Homes. This one is also a model in which there are a few pictures here- http://www.masonhomes.ca/communities/Lindsay/model.cfm?model=mayfair

Like the Seton plan this suffers from entry and laundry issues. The bedrooms are not too big. One does face a side yard however and the other has double doors. The baths are fine. The dining size is 13 by 13 which is quite good. The kitchen would be better with its own window. The great room can handle living and dining furniture if you want. Fireplace is a focal.

Project Name: Lindsay Cloverlea- Mayfair

Size: 1766

Project Address: 51 Angeline Street South Lindsay, ON

Project URL: http://www.masonhomes.ca/communities/lindsay/floorplan.cfm?modelid=34

Slow Home Test Score: 14

MollyK

M.A.M.
Just looked at Cloverlea-Seton. Why not turn the garage to the side if the lot will allow? At least it doesn’t impede on the majority of square footage inside. As for the back entry, after hearing from BradW about not even having if grade doesn’t permit, I’m thankful there is one. The kitchen layout is bizarre.
I would prefer some windows on the left side of the plan where the bedrooms are. I just can’t rationalize not having them because the view may not be great. I think natural light is important.
I really enjoyed this plan…it is a refreshing change from the ordinary.

Mid America Mom

HI MollyK and everyone- I found some more traditional type plans in another subdivision, in Peterborough, with optional garages on some.

BUT I have no time to post plans for now. Someone help out? I am sort of am thinking is not too bad and here is one plan – http://www.masonhomes.ca/communities/peterborough/floorplans/beech.pdf

Thanks!
Mid America Mom

Jodi J

Concerns with The Bradley:
1) Way too many grade changes within the plan. Makes for very awkward transition spaces and too many stairs, for example, powder room on main floor in weird location, awkward shape, in second floor family room entire top-left hand corner is wasted which also eats away at the bedroom 3 square footage.
2) house is organized on a 45 degree axis – a cardinal sin! makes for odd shaped rooms, like the kitchen, wasted corners marketed as “niches”, and tons of wasted floor space in the bizarrely shaped second floor hallway. Compounding this is the arrangement of regular rectangular rooms such as the dining room taking up valuble square footage that should be allocated to already tight spaces like the main floor living room (where are you going to put a couch?)
3) now, please correct me if i’m wrong BUT looking at the site plan, lots “b” are allocatred to 38′ plans. there are a number of lot b’s that measure 11 meters or less wide, which converts to ~36feet. how will a 38′ house fit on a 36′ lot?

Jodi J

correction: i meant purple shaded lots, not necessarily “b”…same concerns with size still apply.

MollyK

Murray and everyone else,
Am posting a link for your viewing pleasure. It shows “typical” homesite layouts for a development by Mason Homes. It puts the conversation about garages and lot size into perspective. Unfortunately, it continues to confirm my worst fears about this issue. http://www.masonhomes.ca/communities/peterborough/typicallotlayout.cfm

MollyK

Jodi J,
You and Matthew mentioned the cramped living room conditions. I noticed it too but didn’t give it top billing in my post. I concluded the actual usable space to be about 13X9 (plus the bay window). My thinking is that since there is a big family room on the second floor the designers would rationalize that the living room is for more formal gatherings thus it’s smaller??? I can’t figure out any other reason for such a tight space. Of course, there’s always the logical reason that the designers simply ran out of space.

MollyK

Comment: The website is nicely arranged and comprehensive.
Walkscore 45/100…in general amenities range from walking distance to a car drive of about 5 miles.
Entry gets No…after learning about the door “where grade permits” I can’t score this a Yes because you may not get a garage entry and that means FAST to me.
Kitchen gets No…Oh the HORROR of it. This design should be considered for a STINKER award. You have to see it to believe it. Placement of stove is on the wall opposite the U kitchen (on the other side of the circulation path…I kid you not!) I can’t go on.
Bathrooms gets No…I thought Master bath was so disappointing that it negatively influenced the overall livability of the Master suite.
Laundry got No…2400 square feet and they dedicated an area for only a stackable W/D. I can’t believe what I’m seeing.
Garage gets No…shouldn’t have to play Russian roulette with a garage entry!

Project Name: Avonlea Woods–The Oak

Size: 2400 sqft

Project Address: Avonlea Woods, 1224 Chemong Rd, Petersborough, ON

Project URL: http://www.masonhomes.ca/communities/peterborough/ModelHomes.cfm?modelid=105&elevation=A

Slow Home Test Score: 8

MollyK

Comment: One more Avonlea Woods design by Mason Homes. I simply can’t do another. They are just awful.
Walkscore 45/100
Organization got No…the circulation just seemed odd (weird flow)…gigantic loft space on 2nd floor seemed like overkill…Master suite on 1st floor o.k.
Entry got No…again, Russian roulette with garage entry and did not like the placement if the grade DID permit the door into the house. Front entry hidden on the side of the house…yuck!
Kitchen got No…disconnected from Great room by wall and no way to easily circulate breakfast table to go outside.
Dining area didn’t exist except for breakfast table.

Project Name: Avonlea Woods–Magnolia

Size: 2040 sqft

Project Address: Avonlea Woods, 1224 Chemong Rd, Petersborough, ON

Project URL: http://www.masonhomes.ca/communities/peterborough/ModelHomes.cfm?modelid=97&elevation=C

Slow Home Test Score: 8

Mid America Mom

MollyK thank you for helping me out. Those are not great plans. I had hopes.

Not sure your thoughts on the initial plan I had for that development- http://www.masonhomes.ca/communities/peterborough/floorplans/beech.pdf
But I am going to go ahead and score.

Mid America Mom

Comment: I take the optional laundry and fireplace. Not an open concept plan which hey I will look at when we see these no good open ones all over.

Cannot forgive the master bedroom size and closet/bath layout. Then see all the 45s up there? This plan needs more light. The kitchen should have at least one window but the U is ok. The Den and living need more (Knocked organization). But the living and den are a decent size. The Baths are not over the top. Back entry is not ideal but not horrible (still NO). The nook needs to be a little bigger.

Project Name: avonlea woods – beech

Size: 2230

Project Address: 1224 Chemong Rd, Petersborough, ON

Project URL: http://www.masonhomes.ca/communities/peterborough/floorplans/beech.pdf

Slow Home Test Score: 9

Tom E

On Monday, Margo asked does anybody really need a three car garage? Let me offer up a possible explanation for offering a three car garage. And some food for thought, since there has been a lot of discussion on garages today.

In the US , the average number of vehicle per household is 2.28, one vehicle household is 34%, two vehicle households is 31%, households with 3 or more vehicles is 35%. 3 or more the largest share!
http://www.autospies.com/news/Study-Finds-Americans-Own-2-28-Vehicles-Per-Household-26437/
Maybe if you were a smart developer, you would offer up the same percentage split of one, two and three car garages in your subdivision to match the market.

Generally I find garages are not sized for the vehicles we buy, in the US vehicle market the split is roughly 50 – 50 between trucks and cars. I don’t think a lot of the new houses could fit a full size pickup in the garage, but do you really need to put your pickup inside at night? I think if garages were a little bigger and could accommodate the lawn mover, snow blower and all the sporting equipment, then maybe there would be a few less of those plastic garden sheds, that are soooo stylish.

I don’t have data for the Canadian market in hand but generally we drive smaller vehicles than the US but not small as the Europeans. Room to improve.

As lots become narrower the garage becomes the more dominate feature of the face of the house. I think these houses would look better if the garage door were not fancied up with fake plastic trim but toned down and make the front pedestrian entrance the focal point.

Cheers, great discussion,
Jenny, enjoyed your comments as well

Jenny

Hey Slowhomers,

Thanks for your support. I expected that I would get hammered. Believe me, I want to be part of the Slow home movement for the right reasons. I believe this is a genuine way of improving design for everyone. If home buyers know what good design is then they will demand it and developers will have to provide it otherwise they will be left with a whole heap of stuff they can’t sell and believe me they don’t want that. I haven’t had a chance to go through all the comments and plans in detail today but will aim to later in the week. Murray – things aren’t as bad in Sydney as they seem to be in Toronto. You may get the odd development that looks like these but I think overall the standard is better.

Just to add another twist to the situation, here in Sydney most developers just sell the land and it is up to the individual purchasers to get a builder to build to the developer’s design guidelines. In my case, my company builds roads, parks, extensive landscaping etc (with a lot of “soft infrastructure” as well), then mums and dads buy their block and have a project home builder build it for them. This adds another level of frustration for me because the builders really don’t care about orientation etc. they just want to sell standard houses. No amount of guidelines can replace good design. And so it goes on…
I am proud to be part of the slow home movement and while I may be working on the “other side” I see it as making change from the inside. Cheers…

Jenny

Just another smaller comment on garages etc. I think we will get much improved streetscapes and neighbourhoods if we can embrace the rear access concept. We have done this in some of our projects (I’m out now, why hide it?) There is some resistance from home buyers. Most Aussies would park in their living rooms if they could – it’s ridiculous. A lot of people just can’t understand that they drive in to the back and have their visitors come to the front door. I don’t know if we just need to build some (more) so that people can see the benefits. I don’t know.

Also, detached garages – again resistance from home buyers. Fo my two cents I would much rather have a great liveable house with generous spaces and quality of light than be held hostage by my car. Maybe we’re just weird.

MollyK

M.A.M.
The plans from Avonlea Woods are an enigma. I can’t figure out what to think of them. Maybe it’s because of the increased use of walls in the design. I’m just not used to such room divisions. There are bits and pieces of good things in the plans (like the ingredients in a recipe) but they just don’t come together well (like not following the directions for the recipe and baking something bad).
Jenny…
Good day to you! I’m sorry we’re on opposite sides of the world. I’m winding down when you’re getting started. Your comments about Aussie’s and their parking habits are intriguing. My current home originally had a detached garage with a breezeway. It’s a great concept but I found that the breezeway was so high it did not shield me from the rain (the house has a crawl space, raising it significantly higher than the garage which was a stupid move by the builder…the garage being so low not the house having a crawl space). So we attached it by an enclosed hallway (still have the breezeway too). Although my experience was frustrating at times (and wet) I don’t mind the detached garage. If you live in a more temperate climate it shouldn’t be a problem for most of the year.

Sarah W

1. I don’t like that there are at least three places where doors open into each other (i.e. garage/basement).

2. Two words: wasted space. (everywhere!)

3. The kitchen – unnecessary angles (which add even more wasted space!).

Just a thought – with all of its angles/bay windows/weird corners, the main floor kind of looks like a pinball machine. One more thing: a house this size should have two sinks in the master bath! That is becoming a pet peeve of mine, perhaps because I am forced to share a sink with my fiance…

-Sarah W.

Sarah W

Just a note to add to the garage conversation – I cannot stand attached front garage houses! My community is full of them, and it creates such a monotonous street scape. I think detached garages that back onto alleys are a better option for those who are able to use them – the walk from the garage to the back door is an opportunity for fresh air, right? =)

Another thing I don’t like about attaching a garage to the front of a house is that there is generally no view of the front street from inside the house. Aside from posing a security issue (i.e. not being able to see who is coming to the door), it makes me feel disconnected from the neighborhood in a way. (Sorry if these points were covered earlier in the discussion; I have been in class all day & haven’t read them all yet!)

Terri

MollyK,
Just a correction from a (much) earlier post in which I called that soundproofing board you mentioned by the wrong name. It does have some kind of fiber in it; up in Canada it’s sold as donnacona board. The name I gave is the name of a old mine (what can I say?). As for the cement-based board–it’s not as effective for sound deadening. By googling donnacona, a person can find some posts on how to soundproof effectively.

Terri

Jenny,
Your explanations of Sydney property development is interesting. I can see the pros and cons of allowing the individual buyers to hire a builder. Since the developer has design guidelines for builders to follow, it’s interesting that there they don’t also maintain a roster of recommended builders. I can see how frustrating it would be to think you’ve design a neighbourhood in the best possible way and then to see some backward-thinking homes erected there!

My in-laws in Brisbane have the separate garage, and the home has a wraparound verandah. It is hotter up there, and maybe their home is older than I thought… My home on the west coast has a separate garage. It didn’t cost that much to build, yet it allows for the house to have windows all around (as well as a few in the garage).

Terri

Please forgive my previous grammar sin…I’m only an editor (who gets lazy when not working).:)

Terri

Sarah W,
Love your pinball machine analogy–how true!

Frank

Jenny:

I appreciate your rant. It was also great to hear your perspective and great to hear that you are doing your best to make a difference for working class homeowners. The architectural design quality of affordable housing issue is not only Sydney’s but effects homeowners worldwide. Narrow lots exist in older cities around the US and very few local governments are doing anything to improve the quality of these infill developments.

One local government in my area attempting to make a difference is Portland, Oregon. A few years ago the City held a design competition to design houses for narrow lot infill development for 25′ wide by 100′ deep lots found throughout the city. The “Living Smart: Big Ideas for Small Lots” competition received 436 entries from architects and designers around the world. You can download copies of the select and winning entries or get more information at the following link:

http://www.portlandonline.com/bds/index.cfm?&a=271581&c=51302

Look forward to hearing more of your perspective working for a developer from Sydney.

Mid America Mom

:) Had to post this. If you could be free of mortagage would you live in one of these Toronto homes (look to be the toronto cookie cutter type- moderately fast)?

Today at our place in Toronto we received a mailing for a lottery benefiting cancer research at a hospital. $100 canadian for a ticket. 10 grand prizes. 9 are homes/condos/vacation properties and other is car or cash.

It was a nice magazine style with pictures of all of this. I could not resist looking. Most of the homes are from greenparkhomes.com and in the suburbs. You can check out the homes via a virtual tour and 3 d images. The grand prize is a furnished and decorated 7950 sq foot 4 bed 4 car home in richmond hill. Complete with 4 car garage and a two way fireplace from family room to a space I have no clue what to call it. Just now looking at the second home at 2880 feet. The picture they have is SO much nicer than what we see in reality. The dining room is just a huge hallway.

Join me in a laugh viewing their site- http://www.helpconquercancer.ca/home/gp1.php

Jim Argeropoulos

So why don’t we just give up on “individual homes” and plan subdivisions to be very compact and then convert the former yard space to walking, park and community space. Make that really nice and encourage people to interact in the community spaces.
We have a developer in town who intentionally preserves the natural elements for trails. He concentrates residential units and then has nice park space.
I’ve been reading A Pattern Language and the authors go to a good length to encourage compact housing with well designed outdoor spaces. Maybe my thoughts are reflective of what I’m reading. After reading some of A Pattern Language, I think he could do even better, but I’m happy to make use of the trail systems he has created.

Jenny

I’m like Murray today. I should be doing other things but Slowhome is far more interesting.

M.A.M – Is this supposed to entice us to buy a ticket? A bit of a shame really for the charity because I think quite a few people would be turned off by this. Just as an aside – charities in Australia used to advertise large houses on the Gold Coast, Queensland as prizes. Their audiences must have changed because in the last few years they have been advertising much smaller renovated older houses in central established neighbourhoods in Sydney and Melbourne.

Jim A – I am with you to a certain extent. Many people still want a separate house. Other people are content with a smaller individual house/apartment/townhouse if there are much better facilities available to all. I hear a lot of people complaining about small lots and that they need a bigger yard and then all they do is turf it. In my mind a complete waste of space.

It almost becomes a cultural thing. I know that in some cultures, communal space is really treasured and in other cultures it can become dangerous and destroyed due to poor definition of public/private space.

I don’t know what the answer is but I am so glad that at least the issues are being discussed somewhere.

Jenny

Frank – Thanks for the Portland document. It’s quite fun to look through things like this.

Mid America Mom

Frank I also thank you.

I see they did some first floor as bedrooms configurations for light consideration. Some of these also look to have shallow frontage. That would be interesting to look at in suburbia.

One of the communities we lived in the setback was 30 feet from the street. I had more yard in the front than the back which seemed so wrong.

Lacey

[img]3_torontosmallfloorplan.jpg[/img]

I posted this on yesterday’s blog… oops.
Here’s my floorplan revision.

Sean Mason

hello – i found many of your comments very interesting on my plans for ‘avonlea woods’ by mason homes. we build green production homes in ontario and try to have many different styles as there are many different buyers.
obviously, i want to defend, however i am always open to how others view our works, especially an educated group such as this. my private email is smason@masonhomes.ca if anyone cares to write!
sean

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