I really appreciate this new section. I think it will give us “novices” more confidence when scoring the SlowHome test, especially if we might be struggling with certain criteria on a plan. Frankly, until today I thought the straight stair concept would be the best choice in townhouse plans because the stairs are pushed to one side thus providing a larger area on all floors. But when you add a 4th floor of bedrooms as in T3 (Example 1) you really see the negative impact of straight stairs. Wow!
Is the floorplan of 968 Queen West (Example 3) fairly common among townhouses? It reminds me more of an apartment because of the windows being only on 1 side. The placement of the center stair would work well even if you had multiple stories in the plan.
The center stair in Cobblestone (Example 2) would not work if the kitchen area had no windows. You could remove the powder room and have an open staircase design (metal and glass fabrication) which would allow the illusion of connection between the kitchen and living area. I think that could have a unique architectural impact on the space.
MollyK
I have a related question: how do you refer to each floor in a plan with a ground level section? In other words, unless otherwise designated on the architect’s rendering is the floor directly above the ground level floor referred to as the 1st or 2nd floor? Is there some steadfast rule about this? Did my question make sense? I brought this up after seeing T3′s multiple-level floorplan.
Murray
[img]stairidea.jpg[/img]
Good Morning,
Thanks, John, for the focus on stairs. Information like this really helps when evaluating a plan.
I, too, was thinking, like Molly K. that a straight stair at the side makes the most sense, but only because every narrow lot house I have been in has the same layout. Your discussion points out the potential weakness in this basic design, especially as one goes upstairs.
Yesterday I was thinking that the stairs should be at the back of the townhouse, and I think your third example with the return stair at the back corner is the most successful solution.
I was wondering, too, about a straight stair along the back wall, as per my quick sketch. I think this could work, and if it were open then you could have windows and doors giving access to the outside on most, if not all, levels.
I hesitate to bring the following up, but what about a spiral staircase? In no way my fave, and it must be a real pain to move furniture up and down, but it does offer a relatively small footprint.
MollyK
Murray,
Your sketch is interesting…I wonder though would that location dictate the 2nd floor use a long hallway for circulation into any bedrooms. I know how Matthew “dislikes” long hallways. If there are additional floors then you still have the issue of walking around the stairs to get to the next flight as with the floorplan of T3. That means another potential hallway.
As for the spiral staircase, it is certainly a romantic idea. (I hope you don’t take offense to that comment.) Spirals are just so light and airy in nature. I’ve seen them used quite often in beach houses so maybe thats where I get the “romance” from. Unfortunately, as you say, they are a real pain when furniture is involved. Wonder how wide you could make one in order to deal with that problem? John or Matthew, do you have some information on spiral staircase dimensions?
BradW
Comment: The units are oriented on a north-south axis and have exposure to both directions. Adjacent buildings to the north shade the patio and living room. The street to the south can be seen from the study, dining area and master. In addition, a terrace off the master provides a private outdoor space. An interesting use of stairs is required to access all four floors in this split level design. From the entry you can go down into the study or up to the living room. Going through the living room to the other side of the unit and up a small flight of stairs you enter the kitchen/dining area. From there, it is up to the bedroom level and another back stair to the top floor. I think everything goes well until the top floor where you have to walk down a hall to get to the master located at the front of the building. The unit lost points for the shaded outdoor living space and the awkward master bathroom which is entered via a closet. Excellent storage and laundry facilities are provided. Parking is available in a car stacker located off a lane to the east or on the street. The location is undeniably one of the best in Toronto and is an infill project on the site of an old University of Toronto drinking establishment ensuring a sordid history of bad behavior and tall tales. The building provides essential green features.
I really enjoyed Carina’s segment featuring work by different architects and, like the case studies before, hope to see more. Until then, I thought your segment today was great.
The townhouse project I posted is a split level design on four floors. The architect here used straight stairs one side of the building for efficiency. On the main living floor, rather than dedicate hall space he setup a circulation path through the living room to the kitchen. To get to the top floor, the architect had enough building length to simply continue the straight stair leading from the kitchen to the first bedroom level.
Mid America Mom
Comment: Developer Sentex homes.
I admire them for trying new construction, infill, to look like it fits in with the neighborhood, victoriana. Issue is I would have done bigger windows at least on the back of the unit which is NOT street facing. I am giving them a YES on the context point but I am not sure if this is mainly on parliament or Winchester. Parliment runs north/south and the other east/west.
The main entry is to a landing and so is the garage entry :( . The baths and bedrooms work though on the larger size, the master shower has a seat which is a nice touch. The placement of the kitchen in the center of the unit allows the living spaces to enjoy this light. This plan suffers from too many living spaces, a recreation room on the ground floor then a family room and living room on the main floor. Getting into the garage may cause premature gray hair.
Good try but take a look at end unit in my next post.
Comment: Take a look at the rendering… they are trying to make this unit look like a store with living above. http://www.cabbagetownmews.com/
** I had hopes for that wonderful bump out window on the second floor but was SO disappointed. MAIN ISSUE IS the STAIRS in this design *** I have not looked at our talk on stairs today but looking at this I can tell it fails. They could have done better. What would that be? Be interested in what you think.
Moving on ..
The entry is into the narrow bottom landing that is shared with the garage – the doors would whack into each other! I think you are supposed to put your coat in the closet on the main level. What I do like is the great room on this floor. The windows (4)and size (14 by 29). The kitchen has a L, and ignoring that angled cabinent, it is adequate but not designed well (the fridge should not be behind the peninsula). The labeled dining space is horrible with all the circulation- just a large hallway. No bath here- you have to hike up the stairs (organization!). The baths on the second floor are fine though in the master I would have switched the toilet with the tub. The second bedroom is 11 by 8. I will forgive them for the 8 since we have to deal with stairs and the hallway (at least 6). They should have had a better landing space at that rooftop. I hope there is a glass door!
On the ground floor is this wonderful open work space. Windows and entry to the main street. Back stair to the living space. No’s are organization, dining, entry.
Thanks for your comments – you are right about the potential for a long hallway on one side or the other. I didn’t think it through completely, but here is what I was thinking …
I was thinking the corridor of movement from one flight to the next would exist just in front of the stairs, therefore the staircase and walking space is still limited to the back and would take up about 7 feet or so. I was also thinking of a single living space per floor, thus eliminating corridors. However that is, also, not too realistic.
My “plan” is about 20 feet wide, so the long corridor you suggest (and I am not disagreeing) could be somewhat generous in width and still allow good-sized rooms, and with one room taking up the full width of the house the corridor wouldn’t go the entire way from back to front.
Further, the corridor could be filled with art and music, and the top floor could have a skylight, aaah … it need not be a nasty dark long corridor full of cobwebs and unpleasant smells.
Alejandro
Comment: Walkscore – 68/100
Have to tell about my despise for the windowless “gallery”
MollyK the more invisible stair is a great idea for letting light through the space.
I was thinking more along decorative or function for a straight stair and had fun putting together this list:
Decorative- Get rid of a riser (thing your toe hits). Having interesting balusters – shaped metal- panels of glass- patterns with wood. The threads or risers could be made of frosted colored (or not) glass with lights above. We could add function. Built in bookcases under or at the handrail, built in desk, my favorite is a half bath, a pantry, coat or linen or utility closet, wine cellar ;) . For those of us with little ones a kid playhouse or hiding space. And the ever popular storage.
Terri
John,
Your discussion of staircases is a nice follow-up to Murray’s observations, and it’s also central to the townhouse design. I’m wondering if an L-shaped staircase is considered often. I lived in a farmhouse that used this design (presumeably so that the door could be closed to the second floor, retaining heat downstairs in winter). It allows the designer to tuck the stairs into the corner and to change the direction of the run, much as the U-shaped return does.
(BTW, I too enjoyed Carina’s post last Tuesday. Paul Cha’s discussion of the design process referenced many literary terms –narrative, point of view and editing– which I found particularly interesting.)
Paulina
Comment: Walkscore of 38. There are lots of jogs/weird/awkward things about this unit, including multiplied main spaces. I can’t imagine a need for three separate living rooms (although they all get different names of course to suggest that they vary in terms of use). I really dislike the bathrooms and the fact that the laundry is just stuck into the utilities closet with the rest of the machines. I love my clothes too much for them to be that close to the water heater and furnace!
Project Name: Tosca Trail @ Erin Mills – Tuscany
Size: 1930 sq ft
Project Address: 5500-5632 Tenth Line W Mississauga, ON
MAM – I liked your River City submission yesterday. Very resourceful finding the floor plans as they are not available on the River City site.
While I was somewhat disappointed by the townhouse layouts, the project is notable for its location in the West Don Lands on the Toronto waterfront and as phase one of new development there. Saucier + Perrotte and ZAS are the designers and architects for this project. To see more of this development go to the following site – http://rivercitytoronto.com
Paulina
Comment: Walkscore of 32. Hard to give any of those big ticket points for context and environmental performance when there isn’t a good site plan (the one they put in is of the whole development and isn’t labelled) or a north arrow or any discussion of those considerations. That’s 5 points they missed out on (would have doubled the score).
Comment: I was generous with this one, imagining that the formal living room could be best used as a study / selecting a site from the plan with a west facing front (east facing back) / assuming that the siteplan does in fact show a decent outdoor space (though it isn’t shown in the plan). Overall though, this unit is much much better than the one in Ajax.
Comment: Front entry is a bit close to the living room, but closet helps to define it (plus I don’t think furniture in living would actually be laid out like that). Back entry is good, you can see the closet hidden there under the stair, but the upper back entry is bad (although I don’t think it’ll be frequently used). Living: where does the television go? Family room will be very dark and conjested. In the kitchen, I do not like to face the wall when I cook, nor do I like how far it is from good natural light. The study is right next door to the bathroom – I do not like that at all.
I do like the terrace, facing south I think it will be a very nice place to be. I also don’t mind the dining area. Layouts of bathrooms are ok.
This plan gets a bit boost from being both well located and the right orientation.
Thanks Brad- I stumbled on what I had (probably a realtor did that) and that was it. I was approved for access today for that site so I will take a look.
*John and Matthew I am thinking about organization.
Alejandro
Comment: Small differences from the previous one, entry in front is good but entry from building is not good. I like the three-sided fireplace, but I don’t understand why there are two functions that close together (separated only by the fireplace): family room and living room. If the television was on in the family room, it would really disturb someone relaxing or napping or talking in the living room.
Comment: While the walkscore was 50/100, I gave the project a yes because I noticed that the walkscore was not including transit data. Loblaws and the Bayview Metro station are only 2 blocks south of this project. The site is also opposite a park, and 8 blocks from North York City Centre – jobs and evening activities.
My biggest reservations about this project (which from the website looks pretty interesting) are its overall depth and the strange jogs that lead to a lot of questionable wasted space in several rooms. I can’t see why with such a long unit and no building above (unlike the multi-story complexes) the design doesn’t try to use skylighting. Although it’s a very large unit, I’m not sure if I’d classify it (and subsequently assess it) as a “large house”.
Some spaces are quite nice, such as the way the kitchen relates to the dining room with the island/peninsula. Other aspects could be really great if they were used to enhance accessibility – see the elevator you take between floors but not to answer the front door!
Overall, this project is undercooked and needs to be rethought a bit to address the issues.
Murray,
I see where you were going with the stairs. I think if you do have several bedrooms which must use a long hallway then by all means jazz it up with light and art. If windows aren’t available (such as in side-by-side townhouses) try solar tubes in the ceiling. As long as they can be connected to the roof (no rooms above, at least where the tube would travel) then you will get light without heat. That sounds like a plan. Don’t you think architects/designers should be putting solar tubes in townhouses these days!
M.A.M.–always nice to read your thoughts on design. I was thinking the same thing!
Terri–I too enjoyed the video with Paul Cha! I thought his description of design had a psychological aspect too (since that is my field). You could see how he wanted to get into the mind of the homeowner and play out their interests and desires in an architectural way. Don’t you wish more architects, designers, and home builders felt compelled to put that much thought into their product?
Mid America Mom
Alejandro etc al. I was looking at the corner unit #18 in the Luna LTD… maybe not even worthy of a post?
It is lofted overlooking the living space and guess what room looks over it? THE BATHROOM! LMAO.
Alejandro
I never even noticed! It looks like the wall between the bathroom and the living room below is only a half wall – perhaps you can wave while washing your hands. Maybe they forgot to draw that line in?… Or maybe we’re not seeing the frosted glass that lets light into the bathroom but blocks the view?…
Joti Singh
Comment:
Project Name: Strawberry Fields @ South Fields: T3 Wedgewood
Comment: Both on the borderline between fast and moderately fast (fastish?). This is an “Energy Star” community – all appliances use less. Walkscore for both is 15/100.
Project Name: Strawberry Fields @ South Fields: T5 Hillcrest
Comment: Walkscore – 77
Same developer as the atrocious unit that Mid America Mom posted yesterday (Bliss).
Courtyard-facing (SE) unit.
No environmental performance.
Comment: I wonder what they mean when they say on the website that this upper level rec room (which I think would be an amazing studio space) is “swishy”. Or what if instead of being sort of (swishy) it was just plain swish. A basketball going through a hoop makes that sound…
As in, “he shoots the ball and…Swish!”
Anyways, decent unit. Don’t know if you can fit a good size dining table in there, or you deserve to walk up a narrow stairwell to get to the ‘entrance’ (it’s really a stair landing)…
MollyK,
I agree that Paul Cha’s enthusiasm for conferring with his clients was great to see. It seems to me that by trying to know how his clients FEEL their space shows another level of creativity on his part, much like imagining a character in writing (but in his case it truly does matter!).
Comment: Great unit! Too bad about the environmental component – the feature sheet only lists “luxurious” items and never touches on, for example, energy efficient or water efficient appliances/fixtures.
Comment: Main level has minor issues, second level is cruddy, lots of little jogs here and there creating wasted space AND tight spots. No laundry room / or washer/dryer isn’t included…
Comment: What’s a SoHo? From what I can tell, nomatter what you call it, that’s a terrible space to be in – so far from any light or ventilation. Bedrooms are weird on the second level with a long corridor to walk through (and try to dress in…) to get to the master, and a stupid shape to bed 2 that would be awkward to walk into cuz the bed would be right there (unless you want like to come home and just fall though the door and land on your bed). The main floor bedroom is HORRIBLE. Can’t believe that this is even possible. And another thing, there are too many bathrooms in this unit. The powder room should be a 3 piece, and the third bathroom in the corner should be nixed. On the plus side, there’s a decent kitchen, dining and living space…
Project Name: Concord CiryPlace, Panorama – Suite G03
Comment: Walkscore – 68/100
This unit has the nicest laundry I’ve ever seen!
I considered the family room for use as a study (a purpose which would be very well suited to that space). Don’t like the master-suite-en-gross, I think it’s excessive.
Project Name: Forest of Eden – The McIntosh 2
Size: 2553 sq ft
Project Address: 2069-2099 Lushes Ave, Mississauga, ON
Comment: 2 powder rooms, but only 1 shared bathroom for 3 bedrooms (3-4 people) on the second level??? makes NO sense. Green point for “Energy Conservation Homes”
Comment: Combined entry is good, closet, powder room and it’s a space. Laundry is not shown. I think they want you to buy your own. Only thing is, there is nowhere for them to go except in the unfinished basement. I do not like this situation. Dining room is narrow, problem with repeated function. Who needs a breakfast bar AND a breakfast table? and then on top of that, a dining room!
Okay, Thanks!
Project Name: Harvest – The Moffat A
Size: 1802 sq ft
Project Address: 10400-10698 Bramalea Rd Brampton, ON
Feedback first- Thanks for showing us three plans and talking through them. John you asked a series of questions at the end of the video. In the future you may want to think of being the first to comment and reiterate those questions.
What do I think about the three plans? I tend to think that a traditional townhouse is one with light in front and back with narrow width and long length (like plan 1). Plan 3, with windows on one side, makes me think LOFT. When I play with designs on paper I do not do a loft type.
-A switchback could work in a narrow Plan 1. How about in the middle? How wide is the unit? Is there enough space if we put it in the same location as plan 2 (for a 8 foot ceiling I think you need at least a space of 11 by 6 that includes circulation in front)? Are you willing to give up the openness and light on that first floor? Open floor plans are popular and I like being able to see the action in the other during a party, keeping an eye on kids, maybe view the TV with the Olympics (Go USA!). Putting it at the back near a wall of windows, which we tend to put a premium on, does not make much sense. -The second plan could be more open with Molly’s suggestion. Issues I have is with the winder on top. These, from experience, can be dangerous as we tend to stay on the inner narrow toe part. Some building codes are strict with usage of these. Without the winder you could not put a straight stair as the width of the unit is probably not enough (the unit would need to be at least 17). A switchback would work but then we would need to figure out where to put the bath. Maybe an L like Terri cited is possible but then going another story with those requires a width you may not be able to give- The third plan you cited all the space that is in front due to the switchback. That is alluring.
Most of the towns we have seen have a straight stair and of the narrow variety. The need to keep an open first floor seems to be a sacrifice the architect is willing to make. If willing to accept an open BUT divided dining and living space you have a few choices. A middle switchback or straight stair that is open and not walled. If they keep the straight stair on the outside wall I feel that space next to it is a great place to think of putting an efficient U or double galley kitchen with minimal upper cabinets confined to an outside wall. Light passes through it and the openness is retained.
What works for a townhome- it differs on the footprint (wide or long?) and the window placement (back and front, just front, two adjoining sides).
Mid America Mom
BradW- not able to get into floorplans at rivercity :( Got a confirmation but it was blurb on being on list for opening or something. ARGH.
Murray
Re: the townhouse
When I think of a “townhouse” I think of a narrow-lot house; one “unit” within a set of similar residences confined by a demarcated “lot”. – possibly a city block, or some such other arbitrarily-defined space. High-density, urban living (in no way a bad thing) will dictate that a townhouse has multiple storeys.
In one sense a townhouse is a great feat of SlowHome organization – “like spaces are grouped together “(full marks). Again, the multi-storey aspect of a townhouse dictates that multiple floors can allow for an obvious and practical separation of public and private space and usage: public spaces on the lower level/s and private space and usage on upper levels: one floor per usage of space.
“Principal rooms having a good connection to the outdoors” – yes, all well and good, but, possibly, rarely attainable.
“Minimum number of hallways” – the multiple flights of stairs dictate a “maximum” number of hallways for circulation. Again with the stairs (absolutely necessary, can’t be denied, not advocating bungalow living (more on that later)) although absolutely necessary are also a necessary evil. I no more want to climb three flights of stairs to pick up my keys that I left on my bedside table than fly to the moon! Yesterday I spoke of redundancy – I was thinking of bathrooms specifically, but what about eyeglasses and house-keys and computers. Do I need one set for each floor of the house?! On that note, what about our supposedly aging population? – Zimmer frames and wheelchairs do not negotiate staircases all that effectively.
In one sense a townhouse takes all the best SlowHome organizational features of the afore-mentioned, well-designed, bungalow and stacks them vertically. But, it is the verticality of the equation that is problematic. It necessitates a redundancy of services (bathrooms, eyeglasses, computers, etc), and so, I think that apartment living is a much more practical solution (only one flight of stairs, or even better, an elevator! among other things).
But, apparently, apartments don’t have quite the cachet of a townhouse. (It would be interesting to delve into the history of the townhouse and the history of the apartment). Apartments/lofts allow for single-floor living but, unfortunately, reek of multiple-family living. This attitude is some medieval hangover from another century’s definition of what is to be “desired” and, therefore, to be attained, in one’s life. That one cannot afford and/or attain that thing which one so desperately desires leads to a mockery of what is a “house”. In a modern (and sometimes even contemporary vernacular, as witnessed by the submissions in this week of discovery) the architect/designer mimics those icons of a what-is-a-house; gables, porches, columns, etc. “curbside appeal” – a Thomas Kincade-like reality. The contemporary manifestation is not just a cookie-cutter debacle of good design, but a gingerbread-cookie house of Hansel’s and Gretel’s worst nightmare!
Wtgrating WayTong A nice looking project. I have same feel that a minimum dimension of about 5 feet by 3 feet is required - cabinetry has to... An In Depth Look At Apt/Lofts In Denver
Kurt Grosse As a former Nevada building engineer and 25-year Realtor, I love Beazer Homes Las Vegas. Their home construction is generally good. Every home will have... 05/04/10 - Dallas/Fort Worth - Single Family
Dale Edmonton I was glad to read that In the first segment of a three-part series on the LG House by Louis Pereira of third stone inc.... LG House by thirdstone inc. [^] Part 1