On the design project I envision the bathroom, bedroom and utilities along the back wall and the kitchen, dining and living along the exterior wall. I’ll manage a plan later if I have time.
On the comparisons between Toronto and Dallas, what is the condo market like in Dallas? In Toronto over the past few years there has been a boom despite the doom and gloom of the economy. Real estate speculators have been buying up units like crazy. People have been lining up, or paying people to line up, so they can place deposits for highly sought after properties. Fisticuffs are not uncommon.
Even last week the local news indicated forecasters are bull on the TO housing market. The only concern would be the effect of higher interest rates.
MollyK
Good morning everyone,
I guess I may be considered an early riser…:)
Matthew was surprised by the results of the graph comparing high-rise units in Toronto and Dallas/Fortworth (D/F). He commented that he didn’t expect a slower set of homes in D/F in this category. Actually, there may not be a slower set of homes in D/F because we did not use the same test in Dallas as we did in Toronto. So there may be some “confounding” in the results. Basically this means by using the new test we may have inadvertently added unknown variables that affected our scoring differently in D/F than in Toronto. Therefore, we should be careful when comparing results between these two cities. (BTW, didn’t we change the test after LA, too?)
We would be safer to look at individual trends rather than overall scores, comparing the categories that remained the same across both forms of the test. The slowhomers would need the scores in each category on the SlowHome test in order to compare, say, kitchens in the apt/condo/loft category between Toronto and D/F. I think we are only privy to the overall score…is that correct? We should be careful when interpreting anything from the “changed” categories on the SlowHome test, such as Environmental Performance and Siting. Of course, we can always go back and look at each individual floorplan for both cities and compare trends the old fashioned way…using your eyes.
MollyK
I know my first comment was very dry. But we should be careful how we interpret these results, especially when we change the test after each city. Someone may shot us down for that, and I want SlowHome to be taken seriously because of its potential to have such a positive effect on the future of what we live in.
John Brown
James,
I think the heated downtown Toronto real estate market may well play a role in the results. The major problems in the Toronto apt lofts we analyzed were poor organization (often resulting from oddly shaped units or units with little access to light) and trying to put too many “extra” spaces such as dens or study spaces into the plan. Both of these could perhaps be traced back to a very competitive market in which space is at a premium and developers have a need to add more features to catch the attention of buyers.
John Brown
MollyK,
Thanks for the comments. You bring up a good point, and one that I have already adjusted the results for. This was possible because the changes to the test were very minor, involving only two of the questions. The basic areas of analysis also remain largely unchanged – context, orientation, and environmental performance. We thought that the new arrangement was slightly easier for people to understand and the small change in weighting more appropriate.
Although we only showed the overall results today, I have been working on the detailed analysis – and am actually going through each floor plan that was posted as you suggest. A visual overview of the plans gives one the same sense. Generally speaking, it looks like there are more slow apt/lofts in Dallas than Toronto. It looks like many of the Toronto condos are “trying too hard” to put too many rooms and features into too small a space. As I mentioned to James above, this could well be the result of the intense downtown condo market in Toronto.
We will all be able to look at, and discuss, the initial detailed results from Dallas in week 4. I hope to publish the complete Toronto study next week in time for our visit there.
Molly, I also want to say how much I appreciate the time and thought you are putting into the project. It is a great help to the cause.
BradW
I do not know for a fact but it seems to me the average size condo/loft unit is larger in Dallas. As a result, I see units that are wider allowing more principle living spaces to be located adjacent to windows.
It may also be that Dallas has more Slow Home friendly development and planning rules. We saw this in LA with infills and I know Dallas has adopted green ideals into its building codes.
John Brown
Brad,
A very good point about size. Thanks for bringing it up.
My initial reading is that this is playing a factor in the results. Again, perhaps due more to the high priced, competitive market in Toronto than anything else.
I am not sure how to investigate the impact of planning rules. Perhaps someone from Dallas might be able to comment when we go to visit the winners.
It will be interesting to see if this trends holds up in townhouses and houses.
First of all, I can appreciate your end of term rush at the university. Thanks for taking the extra time today on the site.
MollyK and Others,
You know in the course of looking in Dallas that I will not restrict my search to the practical and affordable. Here is the first in a series of houses in Dallas…This is a 5300sq ft mid century built in 1962. It is for sale at 889K – a bargain really for a home of this size, craftsmanship and amenities including an indoor pool. Here is the description…
“Known as the Round House, this spectacular, one-of-a-kind, mid-century modern is truly a work of art, beginning with the domed motor court covered in wisteria, the home offers a mixture of materials rarely seen. A rich opportunity to possess an architectural masterpiece that has only had three owners.
The Round House, commissioned by Dallas importer Eddie Parker, took nearly six years to build, with work completed in 1961. Constructed of steel, rock and concrete, it exemplifies a go-for-broke style. The home often utilized unconventional materials, such as the bamboo slices that frame the banister leading to the lower level and the plexiglass circles embedded in a rock wall near the entrance.
Hand-cut, walnut panels compose the living room walls and ceiling, which were constructed without benefit of error-hiding moldings. A thin ribbon of ceramic tiles dipped in 24-karat gold meanders through the house, traversing across the top edge of the curved entry wall and slicing vertically down the side of a bedroom. Designed for the home is an original and stunning, glass-and-tile combination for the main entry wall. The master bedroom shower is a curtainless, glass-and-tile framed, recessed square of terrazzo carved out of one corner of the room.
The stonemason spent three years completing his work; the cabinetmaker, five. The myriad of noteworthy details includes a sweeping, double-lined copper fireplace with two-foot airspace; Italian-glass, mosaic murals; solid brass hardware; hand-carved wood panels from China; bamboo-and-rattan, mat walls from China and the Philippines; hand-carved mahogany from Hawaii; and Japanese porcelain tile.”
MollyK
Good morning again,
John, thanks for the explanation regarding the stats! I look forward to your analysis during week 4. I noticed that the condo/lofts in Dallas do appear to be better arranged. I think you are right about not trying to put so much in the small spaces.
As for Brad’s observation about size…they say everything’s bigger in Texas. We could get some data by looking at the actual square footage of Dallas units versus Toronto units…that should be easy since the information is available when a plan is posted.
Did either of you get a chance to look at the article I posted earlier this week about the top 25 US cities with the most energy-star buildings? Here it is again: http://www.jetsongreen.com/2010/03/top-25-energy-star-cities-epa-2009.html
Dallas/Fortworth comes in at #8…that’s pretty impressive considering the potential candidates across the US. This speaks to Brad’s comment about Slow Home-friendly development and planning rules in that city. I wish we knew how Toronto would compare on this list. It’s clear where LA stands…isn’t it.
MollyK
John,
I have a request for Monday’s blog. I’m feeling unsure about my interpretation of “Siting”. Would you be willing to give some visual examples on Monday using each different home type? You know me…I want to be consistent in my scoring.
Also, can you explain more about the phrase “has an efficient building envelope” in #2 Environmental Performance? Thanks in advance.
John Brown
MollyK,
A good point about looking at size comparisons in the data.
Yes I did look at that link and had intended to mention it in today’s segment… Too much going on.
I think that, like the consumer preference study that M.A.M. found a couple of weeks ago, this list is a useful way to contextualize the work we are doing.
I am keeping a list of these and hope that the group will find more of them over the coming weeks.
John Brown
MollyK,
That is a good idea. I think we will probably be able to do something on siting next Thursday. We have the first part of the week blocked in already in terms of topics.
MollyK
BradW,
Another spectacular example of excess, and, yet, one can’t help but admire the craftsmanship and exotic materials incorporated in the design. It bloggles the mind! However, after viewing the pictures I feel overwhelmed by the numerous array of materials used in just one room. I don’t think I really like it…it’s just too much for my eyes. I love exotic materials but it’s overkill for me personally.
Having said that, I wish there was a picture of the master shower…I’m partial to over-the-top showers!
You know, 5300 square feet isn’t that big when you compare it to other large homes. The Trump home was much larger…wasn’t it? I’ll have to go back to LA and see if I can find the square footage of that floorplan unless you can recall the numbers.
So what do you think of this home, Brad?
John Brown
BradW,
What a great addition to the site. I like the idea of searching for the “eccentrics” in each of the cities we are visiting. Thanks for the hard work. Perhaps we could twist your arm to offer a regularish segment about this on the site :)
Terri
John and Matthew,
Thanks for your recognition of my obsessive streak! In the interest of statistical accuracy, I’d wanted to keep assessing as the units were posted just to get a larger sample, but I just couldn’t find the time. I also realized later in the day that my method of counting (using the good old-fashioned 5-stick method)was not so perfect and I actually had a count of 17/51, which translates to 33.33% Still, when we had 0% in Toronto…it’s really quite amazing.
The other trend I noted, which seems to be a move away from forcing guests through one’s bedroom, is to separate the bathroom but then include access to the bedroom closet within the bathroom. I’m not sure I like this either, but admit it doesn’t seem like quite the same intrusion on privacy.
Terri
BradW,
Thanks for posting the jpgs of this unique home. Hiring a stonemason for three years intrigued me, and I would have liked to see more examples of the stonework (in the photos here one looks excellent and the other not so much). It also seems like the patterned tile work is competing with the stonework, especially on that wall behind the large, curved, stone wall.
Do you have the link to this listing so that we might see more–please?
Anonymous
MollyK – don’t worry the Round House is simply an appetizer…Dallas has plenty of mansions in the 12000sqft range
BradW,
Thanks for the listing! That wisteria-covered dome is really sublime. I think the mosaics and other tile work was done by the stonemason, as there doesn’t seem to be enough rockwork to sustain three years’ work.
Very interesting home in great condition. I like the time-capsule furniture as well. My family once owned a similar Danish modern dinette suite. (That website looks intriguing as well.)
BradW
Finally, if you are really into it click on the story link at the top of the Dallas News page. Also read the comments at the end of the retrorenovation link. The architect was Bruce Goff.
MollyK
John,
I second your motion to have BradW present a new segment on a regularish basis entitled “Searching for the Eccentrics”. As the “staunch defender of luxury and excess” I believe Brad is a gold mine of undiscovered homes of “interest”. How do we twist his arm…aren’t you going to be in Toronto soon? Perhaps you can physically twist his arm if he shows up for the first round of drinks.
Brad…are you listening? :)
Terri,
Thank you, thank you for your willingness to tackle the statistics! I had to learn them in graduate school and hated every minute. I was never very good as crunching the numbers…I was more about the interpretation after the calculations were done. I salute you!
I also noticed the “closet beyond the bathroom” phenomenon in the Dallas condo/lofts…I have never liked that arrangement. Neither the bedroom nor the closet is a good place for guests to look upon as they travel to the bathroom. Personally, I’ve never wanted to walk that far to get to my clothes. Gee, I sounded like BradW just then…oh well, that can’t be all that bad.
TomE
Good morning Slow Homers
Just some food for thought, thoughts. Andy Rooney “Did you ever wonder WHY!”
1. On this week’s design project for the one bedroom condo. I think some of the proposed plans are functionally unbalanced. One bedroom condo, sleeps 2, living room seating for 4 and eating locations for 9. Should this be more balance, 2 – 2 – 2 or 9 – 9 – 9 or 6 – 6 – 6 (advocate) or some split more representative of the utilization. Do we really need so many eating places if they are under utilized. I know some people entertain more than others, but the 9-4-2 split seems really unbalanced to me. When I see under utilized items, I see waste. Maybe the space could be use for a activity that happens more often.
2. Doesn’t anybody use dressers any more in the bedroom, I have not seen any in the floor plans. This piece of furniture requires a bit of space, plus some functional space. I don’t know anybody who does not have dressers in the bedroom. I think we are fooling our selves when we don’t at least put all the major pieces of furniture in the room.
3. Ok, maybe if we had all those eating places we would have an excuse to buy more cool, sculptural chairs. http://www.intlmag.org/files/mg002.pdf
4. http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/ross_lovegrove_shares_organic_designs.html
Cheers
BradW
TomE – great point about balance…I wondered why everyone using large dining tables and, I believe, John briefly mentions this in the video…also cool to see Ross – unbelievable imagination and edge…thanks
Terri
Tom,
You make interesting points. I agree that we rarely need seating for 9 in an apartment of less than 1000SF, but we might occasionally need to seat more than 2. If we seat 9 in dining and living, it doesn’t mean we need to sleep 9 as well, does it? I agree that balance is good; however, we usually design with the idea of accommodating the usual, with room for the occasional unusual circumstances. Still, I agree, a dining table for 8 that’s used to capacity possibly monthly or bi-weekly is an obvious waste of valuable space.
As for the dressers, possibly the only reason people aren’t inserting them is because they’re not on the template. It takes a little more time to draw one in. (feeble excuse perhaps)
Enjoyed your link to Ross Lovegrove’s TED talk. It fit nicely with the links BradW posted a couple of days ago (Independent Lens series on design). Lovegrove is a good salesman for his work. (A $250,000 staircase hardly counts as “simple,” IMO.)
Mid America Mom
HI TomE!
Talking about point 2.
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I too feel we should see a dresser and one or two bed tables for a master room.
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Our symbol library for the jpeg does not include these pieces. Most dressers are about 18 inch deep, from like 2 to 6 feet long. And bedside tables I am not so sure but suspect 18 inch deep by 2. You could add one by creating it but I admit I am lazy in this.
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Is it required?
John about 9 months ago did a room by room discussion on bedrooms – http://theslowhome.com/room-by-room/bedroom-design/ , this past fall was the discussion on the book entry – http://theslowhome.com/checklist-review/step-5-bedrooms/ .There is no mention of a dresser or side table as a MUST have. Everyone I know has had some kind of storage system outside the closet for at least socks and such. Dresser, under bed drawers, luggage, those rolling carts with drawers.
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Then to the spacing/size if we do include them. Though I think it is not cited in the book (but in the room by room) there is a min. size of 10 by 12 for a bedroom. The size was based on a queen sized bed taking 5 by almost 7 feet. The closet should be at least 4-5 feet of rod space by 2 deep. Depending on the location of doors, closets, and windows (type) you can fit a dresser and two side tables in a 10 by 12 room. But looking at the size needed for a dresser and ability to maybe go off of two walls I think 13 by 12 is more realistic. I may post a jpeg on this later.
Mid America Mom
Mid America Mom
Speaking of eating I do not understand the large table we have to use.
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A 5 by 3 foot oval or rectangle table (one that was smaller and now a leaf is in or just 5 by 3). A 5 by 3 you can fit 1 at each end and 2 at each middle for 6. That seems more common to me when visiting friends or the store. ANYONE have this perception as well?
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Wish the symbol library included the 5*3 table.
Mid America Mom
Terri
M.A.M.,
Yes, we could use a table with smaller dimensions. Sometimes, in order to fit a smaller rectangle in my plans, I just remove the last two seats on the longer rectangular table. I’ve never tried to create an oval table though.
If we’re bidding for some template additions…Another item I’d like on the template is the angled chair. A few people have inserted these, and I tried to copy them to a file, but they didn’t fit into my Paint files later (too large, and I couldn’t seem to reduce them). Paint doesn’t offer a 45-degree-angle manipulation (at least mine doesn’t).
Mid America Mom
Terri, thanks for responding. I also use paint and not figured how to angle yet. I think I will take another look for a cheap program out there. I will let you know if I find one.
Mid America Mom
TomE
[img]dresserfunctionalspace.jpg[/img]
Hi
M.A.M attached is a little diagram showing dimensions for the functional space required in front of a dresser, from a book “Human Dimensions and Interior Space”
Brad, thanks for the links to Independent Lens, good stuff. I went to the PBS site where you can watch some of the full length versions or buy the DVD’s.
Terri, the number of dining spaces, this is something I am wrestling with. I have 16 offical eating places, 6 in the dining room, 4 in the kitchen, and 6 outside for 1 guy! The inside spaces rarely gets used, dinner on the couch, watching the news, breakfast in the home office watching slow home. Weather premitting, I eat outside as much as possible, so the outside eating places get used more than the offical inside spaces. When guest come over, it is a walk down the street to a resturant. On the rare occasion I do cook for guest it is usually in the summer when we can eat outside.
Next winter the walls are coming down between kitchen and the formal dining room, to have an open concept arrangement. I am still pondering how many permanent dining seating position and temporary positions to have. Last family dinner was 22 people. (take out Chinese)
Anyway, I still have lots of time to resolve this issue
Cheers
Mid America Mom
ANYONE In TORONTO?
Hope to meet the SLOW HOMERS of the GTA when John and Matthew come to TO. If you did not catch the dates they are here from April 8-11. First round is on John at a place/time/date yet to be determined.
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Terri- No luck on finding cheap software. Able to make something go angle and not look too odd in PAINT. Playing around I found go to the Image menu, resize/Skew option, in the boxes: Horizontal place this value -35 and in the Vertical 40 then OK. I tried the -45 / 45 but that was not it.
Tom E Thanks for sharing about your dining dilemma. Down goes the formal dining room to more open- how slow ;)
OH
That diagram, very informative, tells me that with a queen bed yes in a 10* 12 foot room you can fit a dresser comfortably on at least one wall. The 13*12 allowed placement on two adjacent walls.
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Mid America Mom
Mid America Mom
Before we start Towns in Dallas/Ft. Worth. I went through a number of the Condo and loft plans today. Some findings on bedroom sizes and kitchen configurations.
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Notes: Some plans did not have room sizes. Some of our links did not go to the actual plan but to the development and I admit I did not go hunting in that metropolitan building or rarely performed a page click. Linking directly to the floorplan is so helpful in this exercise.
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BEDROOMS. I felt the footage in the master bedrooms in Toronto were under our min. slow recommendation of 10 *12 (120 sq feet) and wanted to compare. I am not able to access the Toronto data at this time to give you those numbers. But I can look at Dallas/Ft. Worth. In 58 floorplans the bedroom cited as the master bedroom had an average of 173 sq feet. The smallest was 108 and largest 280. In 29 floorplans I saw a second bedroom or room that was labeled as DEN that also had a closet. This room averaged 150 sq feet.
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KITCHEN. In new construction Toronto condos and lofts I think we can all agree that the single wall kitchen configuration was KING. And that style is not the most efficient to work in. I love U (configuration) but Dallas/Ft. Worth condos and lofts do not. The winner- L in all of its glorious forms.
In 66 floorplans:
28 were L (11 were the classic/ 13 were with an island, and 4 had a peninsula).
21 were a galley kitchen. 20 were the one wall with opposite island and 1 was the double wall type.
12 were U. (of which 2 added another “leg” making them a G)
5 were single wall.
M.A.M.
Thank you for spending the time and effort to review the Dallas floor plans as you have. Your analysis is valuable and very interesting. I am sorry you didn’t have access to the Toronto data. In our soon to be released new version of the site all of the data will be available for viewing all of the time. I am going to copy your post over to Monday’s segment so that others will also see it.
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