Comparing Apt/Lofts in Philadelphia

Posted on: June 15th, 2010 | 32 Comments

This is Day 147 of the Slow Home Project and we need you to join us in our quest to evaluate the design quality of houses in nine North American cities in nine months. This week we are working on apartment/lofts in Philadelphia, and today we will be comparing two properties in another segment of “Which House Should I Buy?”

For today’s design exercise, we are going to be comparing two apartment/loft projects that are available for lease. Our clients names are Varne and Saneeta – they are both young professionals who work in central Philadelphia and they have decided to become room-mates so they can afford to live in a nicer unit that is close to the city center.

They need your help to make their final choice between two units – both have scored 15 out of 20 on the Slow Home Test!

The first option is Unit 202 in the “Tivoli” project, which is just north of Logan Square, and is 1.393 sq ft and has 2 bedrooms and 2 baths.

The second option is floor plan “L” in the “Domus” project. It is just south of Dexel University and is 1,388 sq ft and also has 2 bedrooms and 2 bathrooms.

We need you to study the floor plans and the websites of these two projects and decide which you think is the best one to meet the needs of Varne and Saneeta. When you have made your decision, post your comments to the site and tell us why. Then click on the player below to watch John and Matthew discuss which unit they think is best.

We look forward to your comments!

Join us tomorrow for our Design Project – we are going to be re-working a badly designed loft floor plan from Philadelphia in an existing heritage building!

  • BradW

    Domus – all principle rooms have windows, south and east views, like separation of living and dining space

  • nicole

    Tivoli
    Score of 14
    1- Location 3, Walkable 94 out of 100
    2- Environmental Performance 0,
    3- Siting 1
    4- Organization 2–
    5- Entry 1
    6- Indoor Living 1-
    7- Outdoor Living 0 – small patio shown below (not for the unit)
    8- Kitchen 1 small and compact, could maybe use some more layout
    9- Dining 1 – lots of traffic (to both bedrooms + the washroom) thru the dining
    10- Bedrooms 0- wasted space in the mbr
    11- Bathrooms 1
    12- Study 1 – none
    13- Laundry 1 – but not so private
    14- Parking 1

    Domus
    Score of 15
    1- Location 3, Walkable 92 out of 100
    2- Environmental Performance 0, No environmental incentives,
    3- Siting 2
    4- Organization 2
    5- Entry 1
    6- Indoor Living 1-
    7- Outdoor Living 0 – small patio shown
    8- Kitchen 1 small and compact
    9- Dining 1
    10- Bedrooms 1
    11- Bathrooms 1
    12- Study 1 – none
    13- Laundry 1 – but not so private
    14- Parking 1

    Choose the Domus – area looks a bit better than the Tivoli
    The layout of the kitchen is a bit better. Less wasted space, and less circulation around the dining area.

  • Kadoman

    The kitchen in the Domus is better designed than the Tivoli and perhaps lends itself better to cooking with two people in the same space.

    Both units have an issue with the bedrooms, and that is, if these two are “just” roommates, then who gets the master bed/bath? The bathroom is not as much of an issue as both units have the main bath located next to the bedroom, but none the less, having one in your room may be in contention.

    The Domus also gets the advantage with having a small outdoor space. This is a huge plus, seeing as it seems a lot of Philadelphia projects do not have any outdoor space.

    Perhaps the Domus should also get points for the small common computer area. The Tivoli shows enough room in each bedroom for a study desk, but the Domus may also have that space. So the tie breaker would be the small desk area in the Domus. Or maybe it is seen as a negative as it may impede the flow of circulation.

    With all of the above in mind, I think the Domus is the better choice. The existence of an outdoor space and a more entertaining friendly kitchen is enough to distance itself.

  • MarisaM

    The Tivoli scored a 14/20 and the Domus scored a 13/20.

    Looking beyond the scores I would still choose the Tivoli over the Domus for these clients. As a University student myself having a desk/work space is key. The bedrooms provide enough space to have a private area to study and do labs and so on without interference from your room mate.

    I really like the layout of the living room I think it quite functional but the dining room table is hazardous. Maybe a smaller table would be more functional for the space. I also like all the closet space given in the this condo which is helpful to Uni students, consistently collecting stuff and never having the space to put everything.

  • Paul C

    Domus would be my suggestion. The baths and kitchen are better imo, 10 foot ceilings and it is a corner unit which potentially would provide more views and natural light. The separate dining and living spaces is a better arrangement. Location also appears to be better being part of the University city district and according to the website the first month on a 12 month lease is free. That however, may also be a canary in a coal mine so I would suggest the homeowners dig deeper into understanding why this promotion is being made.

  • JPHH

    I choose the Domus over the Tivoli. I like the kitchen layout better it is a little larger and more open, which would be nice when sharing. I also think that the kitchen in this unit would have more light coming into it. As they are not students anymore they probably do not need a large desk in there rooms so I think the smaller rooms wouldn’t be a problem. I think they could still fit a desk if they wanted in the bedrooms.

  • MollyK

    Both condos seem equally matched, and since Varne and Saneeta are young professionals I don’t think a desk in the bedrooms is an issue. I would chose the Domus for the split layout of the K/L/D area which provides flexible spaces. They may also like the notion of living in University City in West Philly.
    However, I think we are missing a key piece of information…where do Varne and Saneeta work? We know they want to be closer to the city center which might in East Philly where the Tivoli is located.

  • autobrad

    I picked the Domus.I scored the Tivoli and 13 and the Domus a 14. I felt the circulation between the kitchen/living/dining was great(good for a party) and the separation of the two bedrooms on opposite sides of the unit is great for roommates as it creates more privacy. The entryway is large and the laundry is well away from the main for quiet studying. Looks like their will be some serious paper/scissors/rock to see who gets the master bedroom with the huge walk-in closet!

  • Grace Coulter

    This is a very difficult choice. I am glad both bedrooms are separated in each plan. As a former roommate myself I hated having connecting walls with my living mates. Its hard to make this judgement call without knowing the clients more. If they like dinner parties then obviously dining space would be key but if they have significant others visiting or want friends to stay over then bedrooms because a bigger issue. I personally find when you consolidate homes you have alot more stuff then you need and have to store it somewhere so I would choose to have the larger bedrooms for more personal stuff and sacrifice the dining space….then again, that’s just me.
    Tivoli takes it.

  • Terri

    My scores for these apts: Tivoli–11; Domus–13. I gave equal points for the first 4 Test questions, totalling 5. I think that a unit on the 5th floor or higher in Domus would be bright and comfortable to live in.

    The Domus gained points for having an outdoor living space and more equally sized bedrooms (there was just too big a difference in SF between the bedrooms in Tivoli).

    Both had awkward hall entries, but did offer closets. The Domus entry might have some conflict with the laundry, but it does allow a better view to the windows (and doesn’t waste space). Both also have hall laundries, which I marked down; however, in Domus it is further from the kitchen, which I felt offered a little more privacy (the front door conflict might be negotiable). The bathrooms and bedroom closet spaces are inequal in size in Domus. Perhaps the one who gets the master suite should pay an extra $50 a month?

    Finally, the dining room in Domus is so much better for anyone wanting to have a friend over for a meal while the other hangs out in the living room.

  • Tara

    I chose the Tivoli for one main difference: the bedrooms are large. Though this would not normally be a good thing as far as the slowness of the home, I think it is useful for these clients. Because they are newly moving in with roommates, I like that the bedrooms are large enough to serve another function. This allows a retreat area for the couples to go to if they want to be away from their roommates in the main living area.

  • Terri

    John & Matthew,
    Just watched your analysis of these apts and thought I should point out a couple of errors. The L unit of Domus is actually 1332 SF, according to the website, so that means its a little smaller (which could be worse than it is), and the balcony would not be there for unit 202 for Tivoli since the plan says that it’s only on the units on 4th floor and above.
    Of course, if an introverted pair took the Tivoli, they’d be in their bedrooms more often than on the terrace anyway!

  • Mid America Mom

    Domus. Desirable corner unit with light on two sides. Good separation of bedroom space. The balcony is easier to enter as off the dining area. The separation of the dining and living make furnishing easier. You can eat easily at the bar if you want to ditch the table.

    Mid America Mom

  • Hilda

    The Tivoli gets my vote, since the proportions of the bedrooms seems to be more fair than the Domus. That, to me, is a major plus when getting a place with a roomate. For the only difference between the master and the norm room in Tivoli, is the slightly larger closet and connecting bathroom. In Domus though, there is a major difference in room sizes. The dining room needs major improvement, maybe use a four seat table instead?
    I really like the organization of Tivoli, if one needs the privacy, their room provides it, and the living room will be a good place for interaction, a cozy type of feeling.
    However, I would say more information is needed in order to understand which unit is the better choice.

  • Bell604

    Tivoli – First thing that came to my attention is the length of the apartment, which leaves the entry and kitchen very dark. It appears there would be some circulations issues around the living room and entry to the balcony, and the master bedroom area seems very big compared to the rest of the layout and the kitchen seems a little small for just about 1400 sqft. However, the sizes of rooms (excluding the master bedroom) are modestly sized, there would be good access to light within the living room, the living room can be set up to have a view of the outdoors as well as the focus wall, and there is a good entry (even though it uses up quite a bit of hallway space.
    Domus – Major circulation problems throughout the entire plan, the size of rooms is all over the place (ie the master bedrooms closet, bathroom, dinning room), there is a strange computer desk area, the entry to the master suite is looking right into the living room, and in the entry hallway, there is a strange width change right at the closet area. The plan does have nice windows being a corner suite and the kitchen is modestly sized.
    I would suggest the Tivoli over the Domus plan, but I would be hesitant to lease either of the apartments.

  • Alison G

    I’d choose the Domus, despite its lack of entry storage and shoddy laundry location. If I am reading the plan correctly, The Domus is the only unit with outdoor living (the Tivoli doesn’t have it on the second floor). I also like the further separation of bedroom spaces in the Domus, the smaller bedroom has an additional privacy bonus with its location off of the dining space.

  • Mid America Mom

    ***Thinking about it I would ask what are these folks bringing to furnish the place? That can be a big hurdle. ***

    Who really goes out and spends on a dining table for their first place? My experience (and that of my present neighbors – note many are from out of this country) is get a TV, bed, couch or comfy chairs, and coffee table and Wa la you are set. If this is the case with our roommates, and they want to hold on to their things, the Domus could handle two living areas.

    Just food for thought.

    Mid America Mom

  • D.Eng

    The Domus was the slower apartment compared to Tivoli.
    Tivoli:
    Cons- Kitchen is located to far from windows, master bedroom has a lot of wasted space and the foyer has no access to natural lighting
    Pro- both bedrooms get the same view, both rooms has a WIC
    Note: The apartment should be equal between roommates- the Tivoli would clearly favourite one roommate over the other.

    Domus:
    Cons- location of computer desk and smaller kitchen
    Pros- open kitchen, 2 walls with windows, better entry, more equal bedroom and location of dining and living room.

    I suggest the Domus to the roommates.

  • frazer

    Overall the Domus is the better choice since its design best fits what has been revealed about the clients. The ‘L’ shape plan works well for two mature people who would socialize at times while work separately sometimes as well. In the Domus it feels more like each has their “own” bathroom. Also the entrance doesn’t disturb the someone working in the kitchen as much. It scored a 13 compared to the Tivoli’s 11 for its kitchen and dining areas.

    There is still the question of visitors, however I feel that if the clients get along then they might rather entertain their vistors in the larger public area rather than in their bedroom. Chosing to live together might imply that they do not mind being in each others’ company anyways.

  • Cnick

    I would choose the Domus over the Tivoli. I like the kitchen alot more and think it is more appropriately placed in the unit. I also like the seperate dining and living areas. They both are beside their own windows which is nice. The Domus is also a corner unit which makes this possible while allowing both bedrooms to have window light. Both bedrooms have good sized washrooms to use which is important because they are roommates and will not be sharing the master bedroom. The computer desk in the kitchen is also a nice handy addition to the plan

  • bbhorner

    I would go for the Domus for these particular clients. I feel that the main living room has more light and provides more flexibility for furniture placement and livability. The kitchen is also set up better in my opinion for two people that could possibly be using it at the same time. Also even though the bedrooms were bigger in the other apartment. The fact that these bedrooms are similar in size i feel is a good think (No grudges held for having the small room). And like others said the two sides with windows is a big bonus compared to the other unit.

  • Hawerchuk#10

    Ok so after careful consideration and some research since there was a post about a missing terrace (Terri) I would have to say that I would choose the Domus.
    To me the space just seems cleaner and better organized. The kitchen is good layout and has good work space. The living room and kitchen will get good light thus a solid connection to the outside. The bedrooms are good size and have a closet and bathroom off each room. However, there may be a troubling conflict over the bedroom with larger bathroom and larger WIC. The dining room next to the terrace is a nice touch.

  • PeterB

    I think the Tivoli is best. The room sizing is fair between the two bedrooms with only one having a bigger WIC. The shared space is more intimate as well which may be good or bad depending on the type of roommates these two are. One big fight and this shared space may not be soo great anymore. As well with the Tivoli, the dining room i feel is better located than in the domus.

  • Allie G

    I chose the Domus over the Tivoli. I think that both the units are great, but certain features, especially the kitchen and the outdoor space won me over to the Domus. Not only that, but I like the living space arrangement and think it would be fantastic for a roommate scenario, especially if each of them wants friends over and needs a little more space.

  • SangeetaG

    My choice is Domus.
    I think that there is a lot more depth in the floor plan of Tivoli which might lend to dark spaces in the back kitchen. The best design element in Domus is the Kitchen. I personally do not like the location of the Dining room in Tivoli, it’s a bit tight. Although, if one notices the dining space and the living area in Domus are almost the same area, which makes me wonder if the living is too small or the dining too big? Either way I like the separation of the two spaces, it also possible that the clients can arrange two living areas, if they do not wish to have a dining room. I like the balcony off the dining room as well. I do find that there might be a some over sized elements in Domus, but at the same time, I don’t think the clients would mind a large closet for storage. Their individual spaces like the bedrooms, closets and baths are larger than the common areas, which is fine considering, they might like to spend more time in their own rooms.

  • Jessica

    I’ve selected Domus’ ‘L’ plan for Varne and Saneeta. I think the additional space for dining is the ultimate distinction between the plans. Dining in the midst of traffic as it is in Unit 202 of Tivoli, lacks focus and comfort, whereas in plan ‘L’ there is significant engagement with the outdoors, in its proximity to the balcony. I can see Varne and Saneeta, young professionals as they are, entertaining more elegantly in unit ‘L’.

  • Neogi

    i choose the Domus, simply because i feel like the public space in the public is more than just a square box, but with that interesting “L” shape gives it separation and creates better circulation. I also i like that there are more windows in the Domus plan allowing for more light in the unit and the outdoor relation with the principle rooms are incomparable to that of Tivoli’s. Another important aspect that i noticed with the Tivoli is that the master bedroom is large compared to the other bedroom, this is not ideal for two young professionals as it might create tension in the relationship. However in the Domus plan, both bedrooms were better proportioned to one another and they are on opposite ends of the unit making them more private. considering all of these aspects i scored the Domus 15 while the Tivoli 14. The entry in both plans are not ideal however i did like that the Domus’s plan didn’t open onto the kitchen.

  • Dan M

    I like the Domus, aside from the fact that it was developed by the University of Pennsylvania, and designed by an architectural firm (design collective) (I actually found the links to the redevelopment project this belongs to (called Penn Connects http://www.pennconnects.upenn.edu/index.php ) last night, the University is redeveloping a large portion of Philadelphia to better the urban fabric). Anyways… back to the units. The Domus has a nice balance and fells bigger, it is likely the L shape that contributes to this, the separation of spaces with a nice open public area (kitchen, living, dining) is ideal for a roommate situation.

  • Andrew

    I think I would have to recommend Domus. The entries are a bit tight with both apartments but I like how the Domus entry leads more into the living space than into the middle of the kitchen. I also really like the arrangement of the Domus kitchen which provides a decent amount of counter space, the island helps delineate the kitchen area and overall the kitchen does not disrupt circulation even though it placed right in the center of the plan. It would also be nice for the tenants that the master bedroom is not drastically larger than the second bedroom and each tenant would have access to a good-sized bathroom and plenty of closet space. Plus, it looks like the Domus building has a very nice outdoor courtyard area that flows out towards the street and the building also has an outdoor pool.

  • Tiffany

    My vote is for the Tivoli. I just think that the rooms are better proportioned for roommates and that the layout is stronger. It was a really tough decission though without know more about thier dynmic

  • DJS

    Both got 14, but I think the Domus is way better. the organization is great and it is very proportional unlike the tivoli. The master bedroom is the huge dissapointment because it takes away so much useable space. they made the master bedroom into its own little apartment with a small living room area in it. that wasted space could’ve been used to make a more effective kitchen.

  • UC_Resident

    One of the things that I liked much better about the Tivoli was that the closets for both bedrooms were directly off the bedrooms and not the bathrooms. It is a huge turn-off to have a carpeted closet off of a bathroom for me and is a moisture and must trap. Also, having viewed the L floorplan in Domus in person, the kitchen countertop space is lacking for an apartment that size in spite of the circulation in the kitchen. If the roommates like to cook, they may find it inadequate. Some of the smaller 1-BR units have better countertop space. Other spaces, such as bathrooms, are also not necessarily proportional to the size of the units, again with some smaller units having quite a bit of floor space lost to the bathroom. You might find the whole of the building to be an interesting design study due to the variety of the floorplans available.

    If two such plans were offered to me if I were looking for a place to buy, it would definitely be the Tivoli. Domus, especially given its location, is more utilitarian and not for long-term living and has a dorm-like feel.