Comparing Townhomes In Vancouver

Posted on: July 13th, 2010 | 31 Comments

This is Day 175 of the Slow Home Project and we need you to join us in our quest to evaluate the design quality of houses in nine North American cities in nine months.

For today’s “Which House Should I Buy?” episode, we need you to decide which would be the better real estate purchase for Oscar and Helen, their 5 year old son and their new born twin girls. This family of 5 currently lives in a 1,400 sq ft, 2 bedroom home and would like to move to a townhouse that has more space.

They have narrowed the search down to 2 units in the “Sunset Grove” development in Surrey, BC – in the Greater Vancouver region.

Option One is the “Olive, which is 1,604 sq ft and has 3 bedrooms and a double attached garage.

Option Two is the “Willow” and it is a 1,620 sq ft 3 bedroom unit also with a double attached garage.

We need you to analyze these floor plans and leave a comment as to which you think would be the better purchase for Oscar and Helen and why! We look forward to your comments!

When you are ready, click on the player below to reveal which Unit John and Matthew have chosen.

We also have a special segment for everyone today! We are pleased to be releasing the Slow Home video about the historical Denver community of “Arapahoe Acres”. John and Matthew visited this very well preserved Mid Century Modern enclave while on their most recent Slow Home trip to Denver. We think that all Slow Homers will find this fascinating, so enjoy the video and let us know what you think!

Make sure to watch tomorrow where we will be doing a new Design Project – reworking a town house plan from Vancouver!

  • BradW

    Willow gets my vote – better organization and living spaces

    John – thanks for the video on Arapahoe Acres – the reason the garages do not dominate is lot size

  • JPod

    This was a tough one, I think that I would recommend the Olive based on the bedrooms, and the parking. Because you are so car dependent in both of these places, you need to be able to access your vehicles without hindrance, and I think that having another vehicle in the way of the one you’d like to use would be a huge pain. Though there is a support beam in the other garage, which beats having to pull another vehicle out all of the time to get to the one you want. The undefined living space in the Olive is also a concern; however, I feel that having both a living room and family room in the Willow is a waste of space, because often when a home has both, the living room is rarely used. So even though this was a very difficult choice, I’m going to have to go with the Olive.

  • Tiffany

    Olive, due to the better design of the living, dining, and outdoor spaces. Also the laundry, with 3 young kids this is going to be used too much to be awkward to get to.

  • Franco

    Today’s decision was far from easy, after much deliberation, my vote goes to Willow. Although both plans have their unique limitations, I found that the better organization and more usable living space in the Willow (as to the Olive) swayed my vote. I am going to have to disagrre with you JPod, having both a living area and family room will be invaluable to Oscar and Helen as the children grow; it allows the kids to utilize the family room as their plsy space, whike the living room can be reserved for ‘formal’ living. Growing up in a house with both and now living in a home with a large great room, I completely understand the purpose of both. As well the laundry is in a far superior location in the Willoww, and we all know how much laundry children can yield. For these rasobs, I’m saying Willow.

  • Terri

    I rated these two townhouses yesterday and came up with 12 for Willow and 8 for Olive, so based on this, I guess I’d say Willow. ;)
    Yes, I still vote for access to light. Bedrooms don’t matter as much as light (especially on rainy winter days). And two separate living areas allows the family the option of separate areas; especially when they’re older, this could be good. It may not be a Slow philosophy to double the living areas, but there you go! (Note: Since Oscar works nearby and can walk, the tandem garage shouldn’t be an issue.)

  • sdokter

    My choice for this family would be the Olive floor plan.
    It offers more accessibility for the parents to be closer to the young twins and have the laundry room nicely hidden. I also like the extra room in the bottom level for storage or another family rooom. The extra space in the great room may be an issue, but it could also be used as some of the dining room if necessary. However, this extra space offers more room for the children to play.

  • frazer

    Olive 10/20
    Lost points on entry, laundry, dining room, kitchen, location, and environmental. Main problems are a traffic jam at the bedrooms and a floating dining room without light. Seems like it would work well for a family since the bedrooms are well proportioned and close together, there are a lot of washrooms, and there is a strong connection between the principle living spaces on the main floor.

    Willow 11/20
    Lost points on entry, bedrooms, bathrooms, location,and environmental. Main problems are the lack of a powder room on the main level and the tiny secondary bedrooms. Compared to the other unit there is a lot more light and the family room is a nice addition for kids.

    Both units have some major disadvantages but overall I’d vote for Olive since it would work better for a family. Tough call though, you’d think that there might be a unit that overcomes the major disadvantages or does something always get sacrificed in favour of other factors?

  • nicole

    olive Score of 11
    Organization – could this be redesigned so that there is not a corridor in front of and behind the stairs? (it affects the main + lower levels.)
    Narrow entry with no closet at the front
    Would rather the large porch off of the main living area, not the kitchen
    Kitchen island is oversized (wasted storage space)
    Column in the garage? very poorly designed

    willow Score of 14
    Bedrooms have weird shapes

    Choose the willow. Even though the bedrooms have a weird shape, I feel that the main floor layout is better thought out.

  • Tara

    I decided on the Willow.
    Because the family has young children, I think the idea of the living room as well as the family room is nice. This was, there could be a more kid oriented room full of toys, and a more adult lounging area as well. Though the Olive had a room in the bottom which could be used as a second living space, I think having them both on the same floor is better for this young family.
    I also liked the laundry space a lot more in the Willow. With three young children, there is going to be a lot of laundry done in the house so I dont think doing laundry on the stairs, like the Olive has, is very desirable.

  • Kyle B

    This was definitely a difficult task! But, my decision would have to be for Option 1, the Olive. Not only did I give the Olive a higher Slow Home Test score but three features stood out for me.

    First I am in favor of the indoor living of the Olive. I like the addition of an entertainment room on the bottom level. Not only is this a great get-away space but it frees up options for the great room. Second, I do not like how there is no powder room on the main level in the Willow. Lastly, I am no fan of the tandem garage design. The parking for the Olive is far superior.

    For both places the entry is too crammed. Both kitchens are similar, with the island unfortunately intersecting the work triangle. Bedrooms in the Willow seem squished, the bedrooms in the Olive better use the space given (no wasted hallway space alloted). Laundry room in the Olive on the stair landing is not desirable.

  • Andrew

    This was a tough choice given that each of the floor plans have many similarities. Their siting within the community is quite similar and the overall organization is also comparable. But ultimately I would have to choose Willow, primarily because of its main floor layout. In Olive, the living and dining spaces are essentially not defined as they are just lumped together in one space labeled the “great room”. Also, I do not like how the kitchen is the transition space from the interior to the exterior porch. In Willow, I think it is much more appropriate to have living room connected with the porch. And in Willow, the dining, living and family spaces are all clearly defined and they all nicely take advantage of a lot of natural lighting. Aside from the main level organization, the laundry space in Willow is MUCH more appropriate and functional than its counterpart in Olive. In addition, I really dislike the dark living/family space in Olive that has been relegated to the lower level next to the garage.

  • Grace Coulter

    I looked at this development yesterday and was so excited by the site layout of this plan (community gardens!). if you read the notes on the website they discuss this community as very walkable despite it having such a low walk score (they mention farmers markets in walking distance). I looked at the first page which describes their awards and also gave it the sustainability points so when I just watched the first video by John and Matthew I was confused. After going back I see that the “sustainable and innovative award” they are advertising isn’t really all that sustainable. I couldn’t find anything on the “Georgie Award” website for this project or the sunset grove one other than pretty pictures.
    http://www.georgieawards.ca/winners/view.aspx?id=1971

    Just shows how first impressions and marketing can be extremely deceiving! This community may be sustainable… but the houses in it still don’t make the cut.

    Anyways,

    I choose the Willow for O and H.
    My first glance at Olive almost immediately turned me off even before I did the test. Something just feels off in the plan.

    Highlights of the Olive –
    Kitchen and back porch was good
    The upstairs would be liking walking into a weird dream where you are surrounded by doors. Its pretty crazy up there. So many options to walk into lol.
    Overall the Olive gets a 12

    Willow Highlights include
    -I like the total separation of the master from the kids rooms. What parents want their kids that close after the first 2 years? Privacy is key in big families.
    - liked the back porch although it was again an odd shape. Main level with kitchen is good
    -upstairs bedrooms for the kids are too tight and weird shaped. When they get out of cribs this is going to be problematic (perhaps solved by bunk beds? lol)
    Entry way on both units is bad.
    Overall Willow got a 14
    Willow wins.

  • Tayler

    Willow, is the best in my opinion but it was a difficult choice. The family room AND living room was the selling point for me. You can make dinner and still watch the children while they play in the family room but you can also have a “living room” area for guests where the toys won’t be everywhere. Although it isn’t ideal to have a washroom only on the top floor I prefer the layout of the main floor better. The family will most likely spend more time downstairs on the main floor.

    However, for both places, the amount of stairs is a lot for a family with younger children and the entryway in both is just too squished.

  • Grace Coulter

    I was very suprised in the Arapahoe Acres video as most of the houses had the front garages but as John says, they do not dominate. One home stood out where the garage blended underneath and one was drawn to look at the glass facade of the architecture above. I was also really impressed by the use of color to disguise or lessen the apearance of the garage. In the case of the teal house, the garage just looked like an exterior accent wall. This is a great contrast to what we normally see in the burbs where garages are stark white contrasts.
    great stuff John and Matthew. very educational.

  • Dan M

    Hi all, good to be back (had a funeral)
    So looking at these two plans I can straight away say the entry sucks on both, not ideal but…
    The olive has this odd column placed right in the middle of the garage, why? the willow has a tandem garage, interesting idea, i like the ‘workshop area’ though. The tv room off the garage in the olive seems to be too forced, not sure it would be utilized as intended. moving onto the main floor of the units, I prefer the layout of the willow, with a nice clear separation of function, and while you are dumped into the dining area, it kinda works. The olive on the other hand appears to not have a clear cut dining space and the island is dominating. The outdoor spaces on both are nice but I feel like the willow has a better entry point, not so cluttered. moving upstairs, we find the olive has dumped the laundry on the landing… seems to be an afterthought and a good way to trip and fall down the stairs while someone is doing 5 loads (kids=laundry). The willow on the other hand nicely addresses the laundry and even provides a linen area within the laundry area. On the third floor we find the bedrooms. The olive has a nice hallway with everything close, the willow has a long corridor, but I think it is to its advantage. While the olive tries to cluster large rooms around the corridor square, the willow pulls these functions apart and gives them breathing room, a small separation of the master (parents) room from the kid’s bedrooms allows for a sense of privacy, which I like.
    Overall, i would recommend the willow as it has a better flow and circulation, space that will be used better and more efficiently, and just seems to be a more thought out design.

  • MollyK

    The test scores are so close that it really boils down to the functionality of the spaces, especially with 3 children. This is where “judgement” would play a large role, especially for the wife who I assume is the day-to-day care giver. I think the Willow would edge out the Olive because the plan’s organization is better overall. The laundry area is in a better location and the K/L/D area is more functional for both the parents and children, especially as the kids grow. I understand John’s concern with the bedrooms; however, given the age of the children I would not be overly concerned about their bedroom spaces at this time. Perhaps in 6 or so years this would become a more serious issue.

    The video of Arapahoe Acres was a nice travel back in time when lots were larger and the topography of the land was considered. The houses make use of natural light with many windows.

  • Murray

    While searching for something else, I came across this – it may be of interest to some while we are in the Pacific NorthWest.

    http://cascadiagbc.org/

  • Jamie L

    I would choose Olive for parents with their 5 year old son and their new born twin girls. Most of all the bedrooms are dominate all other places, it has better organization,connection between master bedroom to other two bedrooms. I think it is crucial fact needs for parents with new born and 5yrs old kid. The other thing is the garage, compare to the Willow’s long narraow shape, Olive has way better efficient parking area. Although in the sence of efficiency on living space Willow has living room which is connected to the patio, but as I mentioned above Olive’s bedrooms are well proportioned and close together, there are a lot of washrooms which is just good enough for this young family so Olive got points.

  • Mid America Mom

    Nice to see you MollyK, BradW, and Dan M.

    Four thoughts:

    1. Twins have stuff times two. Baby swings, highchairs, clothes…

    2. Young kids want to be around their parents.

    3. Babies and toddlers usually are corralled (ode to the stampede there in Calgary).

    4. Most waking hours are spent in the living area.

    WILLOW

    The living level works better. I view the family room as flex space. This could be the toy area or corral.

    The dining room can handle a table for 6.

    Easy to add baby gates to the upstairs stairs and another at the breakfast bar.

    Need for decent laundry area is great at this age – if you can get through a day without changing clothes on a baby that is a feat!

    The outdoor space is much better as there is an indoor/outdoor feeling. Kids can look in, parents out.

    ***What this family can do to make this home better.***
    Worst part of the Willow is the secondary bedrooms. Change a door location so the secondary bedrooms are across the hall from one another. This should allow you to correct that weird wall angle. If the laundry is causing the problem I would steal the master bedroom closet and change it to laundry room (it shares the wet walls). There is enough space in the master bedroom to line up closets on the right side wall.

    Mid America Mom

  • MollyK

    Hello MAM,

    I think your comments speak to the “here & now” issues of 3 small children. The Olive perhaps might be ok for older kids that could use the rec. room unsupervised but not at this point. I like your renovation suggestions although looking at the laundry location I can see the “devil in the details” of putting in new plumbing lines and pulling a dedicated circuit for the dryer. But, hey, it can be done.;)

  • ReneP

    This was not a really easy choice, but in the end I chose Willow for Oscar and Helen. I think the living spaces in Willow are better organized, and the kitchen, with its central location, is well-placed and well-proportioned. Also, the Willow has so many windows allowing in beautiful sunlight (even windows in the garage), and the wrap-around deck I really liked also. The laundry and linen closet being placed together on the upper floor is also a good idea in my opinion; and as I see Oscar and Helen using the second bedroom for the twins, having the laundry right outside the door is ideal. Also, for the third bedroom I like the sliding door into the main bath for the little boy – the sliding door does not interfere with the other doors. In the Master bedroom, the ensuite is right next to the walk-in-closet and therefore good planning in my opinion. This unit lost points for having a long and narrow entry (even though it does have a closet at the end of the stairs) and lack of a powder room on the main level. The tandem garage works here as Oscar is close to work and can walk, so Helen would most likely be using the car.
    As for the Olive, I did not like the huge island in the kitchen, the great room idea, and the multitude of doors greeting visitors to the upper floor. Also, having the washer and dryer off of the stair-landing to the upper floor is unappealing in my opinion. And finally, the little bonus room off the back of the garage is strange to me…maybe it could be a sort-of rumpus room for the kids, but it just doesn’t work for me.

  • JessicaC

    I wouldn’t feel confident recommending either to the client described, but in a pinch, I’d go with the Willow. With a young family of five in a relatively small living space, I think the additional family room as a potential playroom is a significant feature. The proximity of the playroom in this case is quite different from that in the Olive, where one exists well-removed from parental surveillance adjacent to the garage on the main floor.

    That said, I’m not a great fan of the narrow geometry of the Willow. But I would add that its outdoor living space is better than the Olive (wrap-around deck & in-between green space between Willow units).

  • Kcull

    Due to the many similarities of the houses this is a very difficult choice. Looking at it from the family point of view I think that the olive with the better bedrooms is a superior choice for the family. Despite this, the large wrap around deck on the willow is a great space for the kids to safely play in addition to the green space. Also, with three small children i think the laundry area in both town-homes will be inadequate, but especially the one situated on the landing with the folding doors.

    All in all i would recommend the olive due to both the better bedrooms but also because of the larger living space which can hold plenty of toys, swings, chairs etc.

  • Amanda

    Olive:
    Location-Y
    Enviro-N
    Sitting-Y
    Organization-Y
    Entry-N
    Indoor-Y
    Outdoor-Y
    Kitchen-Y
    Dinning-Y
    Bedrooms-Y
    Bathrooms-Y
    Study-Y
    Laundry-N
    Parking-Y
    Score=15

    Willow:
    Location-Y
    Enviro-N
    Sitting-Y
    Organization-Y
    Entry-N
    Indoor-Y
    Outdoor-Y
    Kitchen-Y
    Dinning-Y
    Bedrooms-N
    Bathrooms-N
    Study-Y
    Laundry-Y
    Parking-N
    Score=13

    I would personally choose Olive because I like the organization more. The area in the basement is a good space for the kids to hang out as they grow up because it is away from their parents; a personal space. I also like the layout of the bedrooms a lot more because the rooms are a less irregular shape and seem bigger. The main floor also has a bathroom which is good for guests as the willow plan did not have a bathroom on the main floor. The other thing I like is the garage because the two cars can fit beside each other rather than in a row.

  • bstone52

    I would choose Olive, I think that it is a better layout, with more emphasis on outdoor living with a large patio. The shapes of the rooms in Olive are much more useable, especially the garage areas – Willow’s layout would be extremely annoying for the first car parked in the garage. If you wanted to use the car blocked in, you would have to move the other… in a place that is auto dependent this would wear on you. I think that the placement of the washer/dryer is better in Olive as well – Willow’s placement would leave the 2 extra bedrooms sleep deprived.

  • Mid America Mom

    Anyone looking to test a plan for the first time or do some more tonight and need a plan? I have sites of developments that, as of this afternoon, were not done.

    Let me know via comments in the next 40 min or so.

    Mid America Mom

  • Marco

    For the Olive town house I gave it a 12/30 rating. I didn’t like the overall layout of the house. The entry, organization, and the laundry were the main problems for this house in my eyes.
    For the Willow town house I gave it a 15/20 rating. I didn’t like the entry and I really dislike the tandem garage. If you have two people on two different schedules the tandem garage is just an added restriction to their everyday lives.
    The tandem garage almost made me turn away from the willow house but overall I think that the Willow town house is better suited for this family. The organization of the Olive house especially the entry and the random lower level space really pushed me away from the Olive house along with the laundry on the landing. I am personally not a big fan of one Great room. I would prefer the seperation of all the rooms.
    The overall layout of the Willow town house with the seperation of the main level, placement of the laundry on the same level as the bedrooms and the bathroom placement were strong points for this house and out weighted the negatives associated with the tandem garage.

  • Therese

    I’d recommend the Willow over the Olive for the couple. It was a difficult choice between the two as both have their short comings that are major. The Willow has awkwardly shaped bedrooms while the size of the Great Room in the Olive doesn’t allow for both dining room or living room furniture to be placed comfortably in the same area. However, I feel a young family like this will be spending a lot of their time together in the public spaces of the house and not in their bedrooms so having a well defined living, dining and family room is a plus for me in this situation. Added to that is that the patio and thus backyard is easily accessible from the living room space in the Willow.

  • Ashley P

    This was actually a very difficult decision. Both the Willow and the Olive scored 14 on my Slow Tests, however, in the end I decided to go with the Olive floor plan.

    Both designs had poor entries. The Oliver’s front entry was a little crammed and did not have a closet and the garage entry just opened up into the living space. The willow also had an entry that was much too small.

    Although neither garage is ideal I would have to say I would prefer Olive’s over Willow’s. Tandem parking is such a hassle and like mentioned in a previous Slow Home Test the doors in the utilities swing open which will very likely swing into your car.

    The main difference between the two homes (and my decision maker) was that Willow suffers from the long and narrow syndrome like many other townhouses. This leads to two problems: parking and bedrooms. I have already mentioned the parking but my issue with the bedrooms is that the two bedrooms are really just one good sized bedroom split in half with awkward doorways. The master bedroom is reasonable but may have a ‘dead zone’ by the door which is a waste of precious space in townhomes.

    Olive’s main downfall was with the dining room (or lack there of). Maybe I am not being creative enough but I just cannot see where this would go so that it didn’t get in the way or create dead space.

    Even though it had its downfalls I would still go with the Olive.

  • Daniela M

    I would vote for Olive, however it was certainly a difficult decision. Both both properties have very different strengths and weaknesses in that Olive has much better design bedrooms while Willow’s design is clearly superior for the eating area and living room.

    Ultimately, I think the biggest detriment to Willow’s design was the typical long and narrow syndrome that is common with townhouses. The entry way was poor, tandem double garages are very difficult to deal with (and are much bothersome than a structural pillar, in my opinion). Most importantly, the bedrooms just were not well designed, were very small, and I believe the children (especially the twins) would be waking each other up constantly. Given that these clients are moving to gain more space for their growing family and that bedrooms are so important to a family with children, I believe this is a large negative for Willow’s design.

    Olive, on the other hand, seemed to have more typical dimensions, especially for most townhouses. This resulted in less wasted space as fewer hallways were necessary, however the biggest portion of wasted space in this design is the Great Room. When furniture is situated around the fireplace, there will be a lack of usable space behind the furniture and the plans don’t provide much space for an eating area. Although the family would likely set up a table in the kitchen, there would not be as much space to eat as there is in the Willow design. However, given the family’s situation the extra space in the Great Room could be used for small play area to store toys or a play pen, so while not ideal the area does have a small purpose.

    Ultimately, I agree with John in that the bedrooms are the determining factor given the family’s composition and their reasons for moving. Given what is, in my opinion, a superior garage and dimensions as well, my final vote is given to olive.

  • Joshua

    There are a few downfalls that I see in both houses, Entry and laundry in both cases are not well designed. The dining rooms are not my favorite either. Where I see a difference is in the bedrooms and in the parking/basements. Fist off the olive had a weird set of doors upstairs which include a second door from the 2nd bedroom into the bathroom, that is unnecessary and creates conflict with the main entrance. Having said that, the use of space in the bedrooms is much more concise than the Willow which wastes space with badly shaped rooms. The second is the parking, once again with a narrow parking I would like to still give credit for the workshop in case of only parking one vehicle, however with the windows only providing light to the front of the garage the workshop would be dark and dingy. The Olive on the other hand has good room for two cars and uses extra space down stairs for a room. The advantage here is basements are often cooler places on a hot day and could be used for a TV, or for a play room to keep noisy kids out of mom and dad’s hair. Based on those two main differences I would choose the Olive.