Part 2 – Victoria Residence, British Columbia, Upper Floor

Posted on: August 20th, 2009 | 48 Comments

Part 2 – Victoria Residence, British Columbia, Upper Floor (PDF)

  • John Brown

    [img]shweek26final.jpg[/img]

    This is the completed concept design for upper floor of the Victoria residence.

  • James Scott

    [img]26t.jpg[/img]

    No time to post a plan this week but I was thinking about the hip walls in the front of the house and the problems created for storage and usability. If I ever have a house with a 1/2 upper story than I would apply this concept for sure.

    The above example comes from http://www.refinedspacebyeoc.com and there is a link to an article on the project in the News section.

    I know Leo mentioned that the roof had seen better days but if the cost was an issue this could certainly be a practical and attractive option. We don’t see much of this anymore since most new homes have full height second floors.

  • John Brown

    James,
    That is an excellent point you make and thank you for showing the example. It is quite elegant and certainly in keeping with the use of built in millwork that we have discussed in other exercises.

  • Brad W

    John – I appreciated your comment about minimizing the changes on the upper floor…even so the upper floor will need to be gutted (just like the main floor) to accommodate the new roof build, plumbing changes, HVAC installation, electrical upgrades and new windows. And while I think your plan maximizes the potential of the second floor, it is still very unfortunate that the backyard is not part of the design here.

    I am not intending to be harsh, simply realistic, when I suggest that Leo would be better off knocking the house down. By his own admission, the house requires all new systems, has little curb appeal, needs a new roof and requires substantial floor plan changes. After contents removal and disconnection from city services, it only takes one day to take the house down and dig a new foundation. Believe me, it is much easier to build from new than to renovate an old house and compromise will not be part of the end result.

  • John Brown

    Brad,
    You bring up an important consideration.

    The question of whether to remodel or build new is always there whenever you consider a major project like this. Because labor is the largest percentage of building cost and remodeling usually takes more time than simply starting over, costs can quickly escalate if you are not careful.

    At the same time, the embodied energy in the original structure has environmental value – if not economic value (at the moment)- and not sending a structure, and its foundation off to the landfill is a significant consideration.

    However, even just looking at the hard numbers, our experience over the past twelve years of practice is that a well designed substantial remodel can still be a lot less than a new build. We typically find that saving the cost of demolition (and dump fees) of the structure, the removal of the old foundation, the excavation, the installation of the new foundation and new services, the framing of the structure (including the roof), and some of the exterior finishes saves about 35-40% of the new build cost. This is pretty substantial.

    Adding any new space to the project changes the economics drastically. Radically changing the roof can sometimes tip the scale as well.

    If this was a project in our office, we would cost out the remodel concept design and compare it to a new build scenario for Leo. We would then see if we could optimize the concept design for the remodel to try and minimize costs further. It is then a question of comparing the final result and final cost of the two scenarios and making the choice from there.

  • James Scott

    Brad – You bring interesting points to the discussion. Does anyone have a general idea of the costs of renovating compared to a rebuild? Maybe some of our more knowledgeable experts can realistically ballpark this project keeping in mind Victoria, BC costs are not identical to other areas.

    In my own personal debate I want to add a second floor, my wife says sell. Comparing moving costs (moving, storage, lawyers, land transfer taxes, time & energy to find new schools, etc) to renovating and those disruptions it could go either way. Also considering at the end of the day you move away from friends and neighbours, and you still have costs to modify the new property to your liking (On the other hand the neighbours may be glad to see us go).

    And of course if you do renovate you want your home to remain part of the neighbourhood aesthetic, not an eyesore. Many things to consider.

  • John Y

    Even if demolition only takes one day, there are planning and zoning board hurdles to get over with new construction that renovation can sometimes sidestep (although I’m admittedly not familiar with Victoria’s laws on that front).

    With regards to connection to the backyard: how do people feel about juliet balconies? I don’t know if a “real” balcony is a great idea — it might work, but it’s hard to say without knowing the site. But a juliet one just to be able to open up more to the outside can be quite nice.

  • Grace

    Regarding demolition: some neighbors of mine donated their houses, free except for moving charges, and everyone seemed well served.

  • Brad W

    [img]shweek254.jpg[/img][img]shweek264.jpg[/img]

    Leo, my final submission minimizes the changes required to renovate your home. It addresses most of your wishes but not all. I have included plans for both floors. Good luck with your project…

  • Brad W

    As you can see from my previous submission, I am all for keeping the existing house out of a land fill. :)

  • Brad W

    John – Thanks for comparing demolition vs. renovation.

  • Brad W

    James – Adding a second floor usually means substantial renovations to the main floor and a complete makeover of the exterior to unify the house. Otherwise, the result can look like Dorothy’s house dropped on yours and not in Munchkin land.

  • Paul C

    John,
    Nice plan. I respect, with some trepidation, the notion of assuming full ceiling height across the entire upper floor for this exercise. I would suggest some minor tweaks to the proposed plan. I feel that in certain areas, such as the entry into the laundry, the space in front of the master vanity and tub, tend to pinch a bit. I would suggest adding 6-8” in these spaces. As well the main bath tub appears to project past the end of the wall which I think should be reconciled. If it helps, maybe the entry into the laundry could be from the main bath. Like I said minor tweaks.

  • James Scott

    [img]dsc00922.jpg[/img]

    Brad – I can’t agree more. Adding a second story can ruin a home and the surrounding area if one does not proceed with caution. Even altering the roof line can be touch and go. We’ve all seen examples of both renovations and new cookie cutter homes where things just don’t work.

    I hope I don’t offend anyone with the posted image. I’m sure it’s a very nice home to live in.

  • Grace

    but um um that’s MY house.

    Not!

    You’re so nicely polite, James Scott.

  • leo

    Hi everyone

    Sorry, today is a bit busier for me. With respect to the new build versus renovate…sigh. We certainly recognize the possiblity that the costs may be comparable. Different people have quoted us different things, so we’re not sure what to think. We are hoping to save $150 k by renovating. Obviously, our worst fear is that we will get half way through renovating and then discover that we should have torn it down.

  • leo

    John

    I have a question. Why is it that moving bedrooms is so expensive? I would have thought that moving kitchens and bathrooms would be far more expensive.

  • John Brown

    Brad,
    A very nice upper plan. I like the long run of cabinetry and closets along the side wall of the master bedroom. It is a nice compliment to the long wall of windows.

  • John Brown

    Paul,
    Thanks for the critique. I agree with all of the comments you have.

  • John Brown

    Leo,
    Generally speaking, moving walls on the upper bedroom is expensive for what you get. There is considerable work involved with removing the existing walls and closets just to be replaced with about the same number of walls and closets in only a slightly different configuration. Usually a lot of cost for a relatively small improvement.

    On the other hand, moving a kitchen usually has a big impact on the spaces in the house for a relatively small amount of demolition and construction. Plumbing is actually pretty simple and straightforward to move as it fits into the walls and floor structure.

  • Brad W

    Before I sign off for the day, I want to give a shout out to Terri who seems to have traded in her pen and is now a certified Paint master. Nicely done yesterday!…

  • leo

    Brad

    I applaud your attempt to try to do as little structural work as possible. I think the top floor reno plan is excellent. The only issue I can really see is that the slope of the roof would start coming a bit close to the family toilet and bath. I think that the plans that have been exhibited have show that we may not have to dormer out as much as I had initially thought.

    I think, at least at this stage, we will try to be more aggressive on the main floor renovation.

  • Terri

    Leo,
    Regarding Brad’s plan for the upper floor and the main bath’s fixture placements…Could the tub go where the sink is, the sink where the toilet is and the toilet where the tub is. I’m not enough of a Paint master to do a quick redraw for you!

  • Terri

    I forgot to say that renovating in Victoria depends a lot on the district, but suffice to say that an almost 100-yr-old house might be hard to bulldoze without major opposition. It sounds like it’s in Oak Bay, and I have a friend there with a similar age of home who ran into quite a problem just trying to raise the basement.

    There’s a local house-moving company that seems to like old classics, but the dumping option would probably be extremely ezpensive since we pay fairly high fees. Of course, there’s a good chance that this house has some great clear Douglas fir wood in it and there are many craftspeople who’d love to get their hands on it.

  • Terri

    James,

    A picture is worth a thousand words, but that sad reno leaves me speechless.

  • Terri

    [img]vicreno34.jpg[/img]

    Leo,

    A couple of the issues raised today caused me to revisit my second plan from yesterday. John mentioned privacy for the parents in the placement of the bed in relation to the door, which was something that bothered me in Plan 2, so I made the door more private from the bed, allowing furniture nearer to the bed (TV armoire or dresser). The closet is a little smaller, but access to the laundry a little less circuitous.

    The other issue is the confining space caused by dormer slopes in the two front bedrooms, so I placed the closets and desks under this space. This necessitated the removal of a little linen closet, which I managed to put at the top of the stairs instead. (I also saw a flawed doorswing that I fixed.)

    I’m assuming that you’re planning a gable dormer to front the house where the “games area” is on this plan.

  • Jane

    I am a new contributor so here it goes. I like Terri’s floor plan, gives the master bedroom a quite space at the back of the house, but can monitor kids coming home with proximity to the staircase. One thought I had was to place the ‘kids’ bathroom over the kitchen, thereby having the water services in close proximity, and limiting water pipes running in floors.

  • leo

    Terri

    I like your plan a lot. It is very much along the lines of what I had been thinking. I didn’t want to influence anyone because I had wanted to see what people could come up with, but running the master bedroom suite along the rear of the house was what we had in mind.

  • John Brown

    Jane,
    Welcome to the site. Thank you for participating.

    I like your idea of monitoring the staircase from the master bedroom. I had never thought of that.

    In terms of locating bathrooms over kitchens, this is a good idea when possible as it does reduce plumbing runs. However, in my experience I don’t think that the advantage is great enough to outweigh a functionally better, or more space efficient, floor plan layout.

  • Paul C

    [img]victoriaupper.jpg[/img]

    Hi everyone,
    I have been following along when and where I can and have found the prolific proposals and discussion to be excellent. (as usual) A little sad that I was unable to join in more, oh well next time… school is starting up again :-)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwcYbo7pjto

    Leo,
    This plan attempts to follow the same theme as the main floor. (see a family bath area) The laundry is located upstairs which means the previous main floor location could now be utilized as a craft/hobby/homework area. (note: smaller dormers have been added along each side, portions of ceiling beside each bedroom windows would be sloped)

  • Terri

    Jane,

    Good to see another newcomer here!

    Monitoring the comings and goings was one of my thoughts when I placed the parents’ room near the head of the stairs in this particular plan. I wondered if the parents would rather hear when the kids enter the front door or when they’re on the stairs. As for the bathroom/kitchen stack, I planned the main bath for over the kitchen of my main floor plan (last week’s design exercise–August 13), but as John says, it was more important to make sure it was easily accessible for the three kids’ rooms.

  • Terri

    Paul,
    Very interesting layout. No one has put the master bdrm in that southeast corner yet. Looks like a nice private corner, with buffers from other rooms and a balcony too. I like the way the view out to that balcony would be possible when the bedroom door is left open.

    My only comment on this plan is the double entry into the family bath. I’m wondering if it’s really necessary to have the door on the south end of the room. Maybe if it were a wall instead, a shower could be inserted into that corner. It seems that there’s lots of space in that room.

  • MichaelG

    [img]shweek26mg3.jpg[/img]

    This is a modification to my plan from yesterday, with the master bath and closets at the same end. My plans yesterday cheated a bit and extended the rear of the house out a bit. This one does not, but makes the master closet smaller…

  • MichaelG

    [img]shweek26mg4.jpg[/img]

    And here is another concept, with the family bath and a larger landing/common area on the south side of the house, and the master along the south west. I think I like the master along the whole of the south side of the house more…

    So many comments and different ideas presented for you Leo, a really successful exercise, thank you for sharing it.

    John, I’m not sure what kids of this age would want with double beds :)

  • Paul C

    Terri,
    Thanks for the comments. I have to admit that corner of the plan was more of “I wonder if…” exercise. The double entry (around the children’s vanity I presume) was intended to mitigate the potential traffic congestion at bedtime as well as open up the hallway somewhat. To clarify, I did not envision any doors into that vanity space. I was attempting to get a space/room that could function with multiple users at the same time doing multiple things at the same time.

  • John Brown

    Paul,
    I think the “wet” corner works quite well. I like the set up for the vanity in the family bath.

  • John Brown

    Michael,
    Thanks for finishing off the day with two more schemes. I like the theme of the open hallway with windows to the back garden in the second one. I think that moving the door to the master towards the back of the house would let you reorganize the bath and closet to increase usable space and get rid of the long hallway.

  • Leo

    Paul C

    You seem to invert everything that I have been thinking, to interesting effect. I too think that the corner laundry is novel and very functional. I like the efficiency of having all of the plumbing in the same corner, as well as the convenience of dumping clothes into the laundry directly from the washroom.

    I was trying to figure out a way to put three bedrooms in the front of the house without success. You’ve made a good stab at it, although I think that middle bedroom is a bit tight, especially considering the size of the family washroom.

    Michael G

    I personally like the idea of communal spaces. My personal philosophy is that families that are forced to interact with each other are healthier in the long run. I think your second plan is the better one with respect to communal space. There is nice light coming from the back, and the flow of the space is not interrupted by doorways. I agree, it would be a nice space to try to monitor our kids internet use, although by that time, they’ll all be doing it from their cell phones.

    Finally, a big thank you to everyone who visits this site. It has given us lots to think about. The results exceeded what I had been expecting, and I really hope that everyone had a good time. Now we are going to be entering our own design phase soon. We’ve met with some designers and hopefully will be able to make a decision soon. (Anyone know any Victoria designers they like?) I hope that everyone else got even a portion as much as we did out of this exercise.

    Lastly, thank you John for indulging us with this exercise. I think your site is great. I hope it is the thin edge of the wedge to changing people’s attitudes about what they want in a home.

  • MichaelG

    Leo, I do hope you share your experience with us. I’d like to do something similar myself (restore an old house into a great home) so Im really interested in how it all progresses for you. Maybe a “Leo’s house” sidebar on the slowhome site??

    John, thanks for the feedback, the long hall in the bedroom was by design. If done right, it could give an extra feeling of seperation. Even though Leo said they think of hallways as wasted space, its something to consider.

  • James Scott

    A lot of discussion on the childrens’ bedrooms looking at their needs today compared to their needs as they grow, and adults too. What are the professionals saying about the requirements of bedrooms for children and parents?

    On that topic we’ve touched on the general requirements for many different rooms such as entrances, baths, etc. What about bedrooms? Some say that bedrooms are for sleeping and other such associated activities only. TV’s, computers, and such are not conducive to a healthy sleeping environment.

    As well the bigger the space the more STUFF.

    Any thoughts on this?

    I would like to say another great collaboration of ideas and feedback from Team Slow Home. Thanks to Leo for taking his place in the Slow Home Dunk Tank for the past few weeks.

  • Grace

    This is an interesting question, James. The conventional wisdom is a separate room for each child, and, perhaps, due to gender differences and wider age spacing than in the past, it makes a certain sense. However, it does not prepare college students for space sharing, etc. I preferred those plans that provided small rooms for sleeping and dressing with a roomier communal space/hall, or the shared rooms that could be partitioned at a later date.

  • John Brown

    James,
    Good discussion point.

    My own person worldview is that bedrooms should be small but very efficient with lots of storage. Cookie cutter houses equate large floor areas with good design but that obviously isn’t the case. It just leaves more floor area for mess to accumulate. I think quality of space is much more important. The size and orientation of the window, its location in the room and in relation to the bed and perhaps a desk, the quality of the electrical lighting, the location of the door with respect to the bed are to me critical.(and lots of good storage too).

  • James Scott

    John – Good points raised.

    The desk!!! My wife and I are strict on that concept. The desk, computer, homework, etc. must not be allowed as a bedroom task. We do have a semi-separate office space that houses our computers, craft area, bill paying, all that stuff near to our family room. It has enough space that 3 people can task away. If there is overlap than we have the dining table.

    As parents I don’t feel we should rely on our children do get their homework properly completed without supervision, at least in the early years of school. As with other concerns regarding the internet (inappropriate content, bullying, etc.) a computer hidden out of public view could escalate into a real problem.

    Surely we want our children’ rooms to be places of rest & refuge but we must be cautious.

  • John Brown

    James,
    You make an important point about computers and I completely agree with you about the need for supervision. At the same time I try to encourage a desk space in a child’s room – not for computers or even homework, but as a place in which to keep important treasures,to sit and read, doodle, etc.

  • Terri

    I have found with my kids that the desk was used not for homework so much but more for drawing, writing and so on. I don’t think I would have started writing without my desk in a farmhouse gable window. Of course, I didn’t have a computer, iPod, or even TV (one station–CBC).

    Computers in the bedroom was not allowed for my kids (now 22 & 20). Even gaming system use was in the living room. However, I do believe that everyone needs his/her own private space too, especially more in the teenage years.

  • Terri

    Paul,

    I guess I didn’t look closely enough at your family bathroom design yesterday. It appears ideal for getting a crew through the space simultaneously, especially youngsters. I’m wondering, though, how my son and daughter would have liked the communal sinks as teenagers. I doubt that they’d have brushed their teeth simultaneously; they’d have definitely not liked sharing when he shaved or she was doing hair/make-up.

    As with bedroom spaces, kids’ needs change as they grow up. That said, though, I agree that the more we have to share space, the more we learn to live together. And as Grace noted, that is a skill that translates into other arenas in life. In the fifties larger families got by with one bathroom for all. Cooperation was paramount, obviously. Did that translate elsewhere? I know that my parents were only too happy to build a home with three toilets as soon as they could afford to do so (ironically, after the kids left home)!

  • Terri

    Leo,

    I saw your request for a Victoria-based designer. I’m sorry but I don’t know any at this time. When I designed my own major renovation (long time ago) I found that my own plans and drawings were all that I needed as most contractors were able to discuss the details knowledgeably. You might benefit from hiring an architect for your project, though, since it’s so major, involving more than just a floor plan and electrical plan.

    Best of luck with your renovation. I like the idea of a sidebar or blogspot connected to this site so that we might vicariously experience the joy. ;)

  • Jim H

    [img]2_leoresidenceupper.jpg[/img]

    Better late than never? I left the second floor walls as undisturbed as possible. The fenestration is not shown on the second floor.

    Good luck moving forward!