North Kingsway Discussion


John and Matthew revisit the North Kingsway Remodel to discuss some viewer comments concerning the project.

  • http://profiles.google.com/srdan.nad Srdan Nagy

    John and Matthew, this discussion is good, few interesting points have been made… First of all, I don’t see any problem doing this kind of renovation, house is 50 to 60 years old, if you do a modest renovation now you will have to do another in 5 to 10 years. Complete renovations for this age of the house is great solution. You address all the issues, structural, insulation aesthetics….. and you solved all the problems for next 20 years.Cladding the exterior is great solution, I guess they put some insulation between the masonry wall and exterior cladding…. that would improve overall insulation of the house.I have to agree with John, front facade is not that great, they should paint upper section of the house (above that line) white, and lose that hideous roof overhang. “Bwaters87 ” mentioned that this facade looks like DIY job, and I have to agree… it look a bit cheap.SN

  • Oscar B. Morales

    Hello John and Mathew,
     
    Thank you for revisiting this project and hope that Louise will reply to those comments that have been posted and will be posted.
     
    Although at first glance I was not impressed by the final execution of the façade, I feel that I would have done a similar approach to the design if I were the project designer.
     
    I also went into the Altius Architecture web site to get an idea of the kind of work that the firm produces. I was impressed with the body of work and how they approached their designs.
     
    This of course is my interpretation of what I saw that they have done without actual discourse with the architects.
     
    In my opinion this project went as far as it could, given the program (clients request and needs).  I, like S.N. feel that the overhang is weak, even hideous. It can only lead me to believe that details were compromised on the final exterior finishes do to budgetary constrains. The dark gray color stucco, seems to be part of the firms signature, this in itself could have been part of what attracted the client to Altius Architects.
     
     I would love to hear from the Architect Designer, although I don’t think that this will happen, we don’t talk bad about our own projects, even though we constantly malign the contractors for not executing the work as designed, usually to cut corners to meet budgetary constrains.
     
    I also like to mention, as I have done before, it is easy to blame the Architect for the final product, but remember that the we are not working on a vacuum, and I would hate even more than I already do, for city, towns or neighborhood groups to interfere in what is good or bad design. Their concern should stick to public safety.
     
    Oscar

  • Terri

    John and Matthew,
    Weighing in on this discussion, as I did on Monday.

    Since I live with a mason, the rock facade was immediately interesting to me. Unusual rock colours, and I can’t see too clearly, but it looks like they were fitted well. That masonry could be sealed, but it’d be expensive and an ongoing maintenance job. And if insulation is required, it’d be  expensive to rip down drywall, seal the masonry wall and then insulate.

    If the masonry wall was failing, then obviously something needed to
    be done. And since modern was the chosen style for interior renovation,
    it made sense to improve the masonry wall as they have–by cladding. I
    don’t know what to make of its facade now–just seems too minimal to the
    extext of looking like money was an issue. Your suggestion of
    delineating that stucco separation with material or colour makes
    sense. I especially dislike the steps and railing, but I have no idea
    how that could be improved. I’m not a designer.

  • Kirk

    John and Matthew
    I do agree with your commentary on the change of material on the front façade and reinforcing the ordinance lines alleviating the floating second floor windows. What is not shown in the photos you have posted on Slow Home is the presence of the original hip roof which is clearly visible from the street and does not reflect in the photos.  I’m sure you would agree that the mix of a modestly pitched hip roof and a flat roof situation is extremely difficult to pull off successfully in the context of a modern remodel.  Perhaps a discussion regarding roof lines and how they relate to the surrounding homes in the context of a remodel might be a great discussion for your viewers.

  • Louise

    Gosh.  So much to say.  I’ll try to be concise on two points.

     

    The first has to do with the practicality of this
    solution.  Studies in cognitive
    psychology have shown time and again that two equally well intentioned people
    can literally ‘see’ the same situation differently.   I owned and lived in an 1892 Victorian for
    most of the 1990’s.  I subscribed to Old
    House Journal and sat on the board of an architectural preservation
    organization.  I’ve seen dozens of horribly
    derelict buildings returned to pristine condition. 

     

    The architects on this project stated that the stonework was
    beyond repair.  Yet it was strong enough
    to continue to bear the roof load as well as the added weight of new insulation
    and an applied layer of stucco.   Stonework
    from the 1930’s and 40’s cannot be replicated today.  Like an extinct species, once it’s gone, it’s
    gone.  My gut sense is that the facade on
    this building was not treated with the respect it deserved.   

     

    The second issue concerns context.  A building’s setting includes not only the adjacent
    structures, but also the people who inhabit them and their cultural
    values.  It’s likely that most folks in Kingsway
    specifically chose to live in a neighborhood characterized by traditional
    design.   There’s been no end of debate
    on how far communities can or should go in enforcing the values of the
    majority.  But the discussion has merit
    and I’m grateful to John and Matthew for giving us a chance to continue it.  

     

    Oscar believes that architects and clients should be free to
    do as they choose.  In the U.S. at least,
    that has resulted in a visual cacophony which is often painful to behold.  Travelers to Europe are drawn to traditional
    villages in part because they have a natural coherence of design.  The limited variety of materials available at
    a given time meant that the builders operated under significant restrictions.  Yet places of great beauty were created.   

     

    I believe that constraints on the types of design permitted
    in certain neighborhoods are legitimate and reasonable.  In the case of an historic area such as Kingsway,
    this renovation should not have been allowed. 
    It ruptures the continuity of scale and style that makes older
    communities appealing.   Sorry, but I
    still think this project would have been more appropriate elsewhere.              

  • Terri

    Something else to consider…what about those chimneys? I couldn’t tell in the photo if they were removed, but in the drawings they seem to be present.

  • Terri

    Louise, Nicely put. You have clarified where you’re coming from and made lots of relevant points.

    I do feel some pain to see that artisan’s work on the rock facade now lost forever. All that time and craftmanship gone. Maybe it’s not sacred to the modern crowd, though ironically, so often they will strip off an old brick wall only to show the side that was never meant to be seen, with weeping mud on joints and so on and say they’re paying homage to the history of the structure.

    History can be preserved while still making a building more efficient, and it often is. Other times, history is made by changing the face of a neighbourhood forever. This project is one of the latter. Whether it’s good or not so good, the debate will also rage forever!

  • BradW

    John – Just so I understand – your criteria for modest is the retention of the existing building and most window and door openings. I agree this is a good thing but in terms of scope of work, cost or any other meaningful measure this was not a modest renovation.

    I also appreciated the revisit of this topic. The side and rear elevations were reasonable and provided context for the front. While I like the addition very much, I remain unconvinced regarding the front elevation. IMO, the small openings create problems with proportion which the architects/builders/clients failed to successfully address. Additional detail in wood between the second storey windows as alluded to by  John and Matthew in their discussion may help but I would like to see something more dramatic, larger in scale. 

    I was glad Louise voiced her strong opinion the other day as it becomes the springboard for following debate. I disagree with Louise regarding her opinion on architectural controls. The last thing we need is another group of high minded, trough feeding bureaucrats telling us what we can design and build. While I may not like the facade of the Kingsway house, I defend the right of the owner to build it. 

  • BradW

    Further to my high minded trough feeding bureaucrat comment – even worst would be volunteer high minded trough feeding bureaucrats… :)

    Since the building was retained it seems reasonable that the stone work could have been restored. So what. Frankly, I thought the stone work was not particularly distinctive. But again so what. The owner of this property decided to change it. That is all that matters.

  • Oscar B. Morales

    Louise, Thank you so much for accepting my invitation to reply.
     
    I agree with cognitive psychologies, but would like to add that although we seek equality in many aspects, we still remain unique in many others, as long as we remain civil. To me this is one the joys of living.
     
    I have looked for where this statement came from “The architects on this project stated that the stonework was beyond repair.  Yet it was strong enough to continue to bear the roof load as well as the added weight of new insulation and an applied layer of stucco”
     
    The house in North Kingsway is between 55 and 60 years of age. I bring this up because historically this type of post war housing was done quickly and inexpensively, so I question whether it truly is of load bearing masonry construction or a veneer, cavity wall construction. Nonetheless, I agree that if it was of significant historical value, or had sentimental value to the owner then the stonework should have been saved. But it was not.
     
    ”. I have done extensive renovation designs to both, historical (In the National historic registry) and antique houses up to 300 years of age, as well as furniture, I do have great respect for curators and people who restore houses to its original state (with modern improvements), but I also believe that not all structures should be saved once the life service has expired.
     
    I also haven’t read anywhere that this area of Toronto has been designated as a historical district, and would you consider a barely 60 year old a historical candidate?.
     
    I am glad that you brought up context, which is the real argument here, what are the local parameters that dictated what was done, zoning, local governing rules or none. Is the fact that the massing of the house was maintained, although it was for a budgetary reason, enough to be able to say that it is contextually acceptable, or should it go as far as also being dictated as to what the use of all exterior materials should be.
     
    Yes, I believe that the community should be more involved and proactive in what is an acceptable, contextual guide, but even then it needs to be flexible. Then if this happen, I would agree that there would be a cultural significance to the inhabitants of the neighborhood.
     
    I am sorry that I came across as one “that believes that architects and clients should be free to do as they choose”, in principle I am like that, but practically most of the time I am traditional in the way that I design inside and out, but I will fight city hall every time that I see that their demands are unreasonable and out of the given rules. I don’t follow blindly to blank statements such as “that is the way that is always done” or “it goes along with the character of the neighborhood”.
     
    Some people’s visual cacophony is another’s visual symphony and don’t want to start another war about another subject that is part of this argument, where is vernacular and regionalism in this debate.
     
    Lastly, if this project was not built in Kingsway “then where?”. I do believe in a form of new urbanism, but one that is tempered by;
    “Adaptive Reuse”. Lets not allow restrictions and context
    and historical committees,
     force us into taking virgin land
    and developing it to house those
    “more appropriately elsewhere” orphans.
     
    Sincerely,
     
    Oscar

  • Oscar B. Morales

    Terri,
     
    I have worked with some fine artisan’s but not consider this stonework to be held to that high level of praise, there are more samples of this craftsmanship in the neighborhood. So I do not lament the loss. Neighborhoods are forever changing, and so are techniques, tastes, trends, fads you name it.
     
    I still believe that it is better to actively engage in adaptive reuse, than to let derelict, abandoned and structures that don’t perform well continue in their demise.
     
    “Adaptive Reuse becomes a means to revitalize urban life and declining neighborhoods.” (from MIT Greening East Campus)
     
    I personally try not to pay homage to any part of my designs, but I do at the request of the clients, most of the times it goes by the way side and abandoned either before completion or soon after.
     
    And yes it is good that neighborhoods do change forever, otherwise we would still be living in caves or huts. Which is not a bad idea, either !!!
     
    Let’s keep the debate raging !!!

    Sincerely,

    Oscar

  • Terri

    Oscar,
    I’m not sure this masonry was great either. I’ve seen better too. IAs you say, it’s probably only a rock veneer–not something more substantial. Maybe it didn’t deserve preservation. Afterall, if it failed, then the mason must have made some errors with his mortar, so possibly it’s one of those cases where preservation would be impossible, or at the very least a massive re-poiinting job even before sealing.

    I like your point about adaptive reuse . Revitalization and change do need to be embraced. The first home on the block to strike out in a new direction will always be the most noticed; one would imagine that the architects are aware of this “pioneering” position such a home would have and would try to minimize the shock to the neighbours. Or maybe it’s okay to just say it like it is: Times are a-changing, folks!

    Eventually,others will be adapted and added to the mix.

  • Terri

    Oscar,
    I’m not sure this masonry was great either. I’ve seen better too. IAs you say, it’s probably only a rock veneer–not something more substantial. Maybe it didn’t deserve preservation. Afterall, if it failed, then the mason must have made some errors with his mortar, so possibly it’s one of those cases where preservation would be impossible, or at the very least a massive re-poiinting job even before sealing.

    I like your point about adaptive reuse . Revitalization and change do need to be embraced. The first home on the block to strike out in a new direction will always be the most noticed; one would imagine that the architects are aware of this “pioneering” position such a home would have and would try to minimize the shock to the neighbours. Or maybe it’s okay to just say it like it is: Times are a-changing, folks!

    Eventually,others will be adapted and added to the mix.