Toronto Two Storey Home Redesign Workshop

Posted on: September 18th, 2010 | 36 Comments

Thank you very much to everyone who participated in our LIVE workshop this morning! We had a great discussion as we worked through the main floor renovation of Mike’s 1,000 square foot home in Toronto. If you were unable to join us LIVE, click on the player below to watch the entire broadcast (please note: the video may take some time to buffer before it begins).

To see John and Matthew’s main floor scheme for this house in more detail, click on the link below.

We would also like to thank Mike for engaging the Slow Home community and allowing us to work on your home! We look forward to your comments about the schemes that were presented. Remember, next Saturday, September 25 at 9am MDT/ 11am Eastern we are going to be doing a LIVE workshop on the second floor of Mike’s house, so make sure you tune in!

See you on Monday when we will be announcing our Design Challenge for the week!

  • BradW

    The kitchen in John’s design is very nice – there just does not seem to be enough room left over for dining and living. Time to take a sledge hammer to the back wall and built a flat roof addition. Take advantage of the flat roof to add outdoor space to the upper level. :)

  • Matthew North

    Yes, it would be nice to have another 3 or 4 feet. Could be a real modest addition.

  • Paul C

    [img]tormike.jpg[/img]

    To preserve its history, I wanted to emphasize on the inside, that this is a little brick house. Took advantage of the existing roof and foundation of the porch to add a vestibule while maintaining some porch…for the swing. Made allowances for upper floor mechanical (around the half bath) and addition of exterior wall insulation (interior framing shown in photos) except along the stairwell wall where I am suggesting it be insulated on the exterior. Appears to be more sideyard space on that as per the photos as well. I arrived at the same conclusion as John in that this little home did not need three entry’s. To expand the interior space, the stairs leading upstairs are visible through a glass wall with a low millwork base for the tv. The entire south brick wall would be exposed so as to connect the front and rear spaces. Those stairs could be of an “industrial” look to play off the glass wall, the exposed brick and the exposed steel column.

  • Paul C

    Quick clarification, the stairs into the basement are a straight run. The “stair lines” that seem to turn overtop the millwork are the top of the upper stairs. Those lines are supposed to be dashed. Oh well.

  • Matthew North

    Paul C – great plan and very well detailed! The entry vestibule makes all the difference to the furniture layouts and the guest bath is a great addition.

  • Paul C

    Thanks Matthew, sadly I was not able to get my “homework” done for class and missed out on the discussion. Looking forward to the upper floor. Maybe we should do the basement as well just for good measure.

  • BradW

    As usual, nice job PaulC. In particular, I really like that front vestibule.

    I wonder if Mike would undertake this renovation again or, in hindsight, would it have been better to demolish and start from scratch maybe using a prefab design.

  • Mike

    Wow! thanks to everyone for your input.
    Terri, yes I am confused because all the plans offered some good ideas, now I guess I will try to combine some things and come up with something I can live with.
    I like your idea of the closet in the middle and having followed slow home for awhile I noticed your banquette seating and tried to have it facing the backyard.

    BradW;
    your planB was the very first idea that came out of my nouth when I first started this reno. It keeps the kitchen in the same location and adds a sink and window facing the backyard. I would just have to re-frame the joists to add 2 extra steps to make the stairs safer going down to the side door.

    I do like your planC, it is very do-able and gives me the extra length that is needed. Only we would loose the front porch which is so much coming back in vogue, meeting up with neighbours, watching out for kids etc.

    A kitchen designer who doesn’t like corners I went to, had the same idea as Frances GF. She said by closing up the door it allowed for a much longer island and you could put the dishwasher in the end against the wall to hide any unsightly mess.

    MAM: I like your idea of the center island as well. I was playing with the idea awhile ago (except not so integrated), it is basically a galley in the middle of the floorplan it keeps it open to both back and front ( I prefer the LR at the front) it does block a little light but not too much, and it hides the kitchen somewhat form the front entry. I toyed with the idea of having sliding panels on the ends seperating the LR from the kitchen so it becomes completely closed off. Only challenge is I could only get the kitchen to be 7′ long to make the other rooms work.

    Theresa@NY: I recently went to an open house and saw a similar layout to yours I thought it looked great. Actually 2 open houses, 1 had a raised bar so you could not see completely thru to the kitchen and 1 had a counter height island with a overhang, I would build a wall to enclose the post at the end of the island and use it to run electric wires, mount light switches and perhaps run central vac also. I agree with changing the door swing at the back, what else did you have in mind? for doors/windows? This back corner is where I wanted to put a powder room, but with this plan having the seating so close wouldn’t be “nice”. Are you proposing a closet at the back? can you please clarify what the other colors indicate? I was thinking pantry or hutch?

    Thanks to everyone again (now I am totally confused!)
    Mike

  • Mid America Mom

    Mike, thanks for coming on tonight. Wow late night for you- I am in central these days (did not take long to get used to one hour change).

    As for comments on 7 foot galley…let me stew another post

    Mid America Mom

  • Paul C

    Thanks Brad W. Good question, hard to say, there is something about patina.

  • Mid America Mom

    Mike,

    I assume you need a dishwasher. Coming from a larger suburban home you probably had a much larger kitchen. 7 long for a double galley is tight. If you have one wall with refrigerator on one end and the stove on the other it could pass depending on how much space you want between them. Looks like 1.5 or 2 feet. But I never recommend having a stove without counter on both sides due to safety and ease and suggest 2 or more between it and the refrigerator… so I have nothing to share.

    Basic L configuration kitchens like TheresaNy’s are not feeling the love these days. Depending on the design these can make you feel that the dining is part of the kitchen – a country kitchen. Is this something your family would want?

    Since you indicated a desire for division between kitchen and living, and liked the raise height you saw in another place, I would lean toward Theresa’s plan but would remove the peninsula seating.

    Mid America Mom

  • Terri

    Paul C,
    Just found your plan today. Nicely done. I was wondering why you didn’t put the dw next to the sink, as it looks like there’s room for it there w/o conflicts. The powder room’s placement is good with that extra space into it; although I did notice that it separates the living and kitchen/dining, which is less open-plan. However, the way the living room uses the complete width to the staircase because the closet is no longer makes for a nice, livable living space. And you’ve even kept a usable front porch too. Overall, nice trade-offs!

  • Terri

    Oh, yeah, Mike, about those two leaded glass windows you mentioned yesterday…Maybe they could be hung one above the other for a wall divider. I see this working especially in John’s plan at the end of the kitchen counter. It’d be a nod to the home’s heritage and a bit of a conversation piece.

  • Mid America Mom

    Terri

    here is basically my front of the plan kitchen with bath. I added Paul’s vestibule. Issues are circled.

    For the second I moved the front door over and added a 5*4 bath and closet.

    The interior dining has a wall for that post. One side is solid and other is shelves or cabinets. I found the table that attaches to the wall and is art here – http://www.ivydesign.at/products/picture-table . It is expensive and only up to 51″ long. The space can handle a table a little bit bigger than that. I did toy with adding in the large table and placing it sandwiched from wall to wall. I thought we could get away with it since the center hall is right there.

    Mid America Mom

  • Mid America Mom

    [img]1_tofrstflr7.jpg[/img][img]1_tofrstflr8.jpg[/img]

    oops missing images

  • Mike

    Hi MAM; it was a late night last night!

    In your second plan with the center island incorporating the post, what is the length of the island and the stove /fridge line behind it?

    If I use std 30″ stove & fridge that’s 5′ + 2ft either side of the stove = 9ft run.

    I don’t have autocad and can’t really tell true dimensions.

    Thnx Mike

  • Theresa@NY

    Hi Mike,

    I was trying to show a closet by the back door (dark gray) and a base and wall combination between it and the stairs – the pink is counter top and the blue is wall cabinetry.

    If you don’t want counter seating the sink leg could have shallow depth cabinets facing the living room (taller than the base cabinets) to house books, electronics, etc. instead of leaving space for stools…the doors could be glass. That gives you a little more room for furniture. BTW, the weird multi-color blob is the TV.

    How are you going to deal with the stairs? Will there be any turns in either the basement or main stair runs? What did you think about eliminating the side door? It could be replaced with a window for air, light, and interest. I think that your decisions about the stairs will dictate a lot of the rest of your design.

    Are your windows high enough to put 36″ cabinets under them without modifications or is that not an problem for you? Do you like sliding glass doors?

  • Theresa@NY

    I was also wondering if there’s any play in the placement of the support column – I see what I think is the steel beam in the ceiling running front to back – can the column move along that beam at all?

  • Paul C

    Hi Terri,
    Thanks for the feedback. The rationale for the DW location was driven by the desire to have some knee space for the breakfast bar near the sink. Typically, when working with an island or peninsula, it is desirable to have 24” deep base cabinets and then an extended counter for stools however given the limited space, where the stools are located in this plan, the base cabinets are only 12” deep and so not deep enough for a dishwasher.

    I spent quite a bit time fiddling around with the overall open plan. I wanted to find a way to get a guest bath in and provide walls for the upper floor mechanical needs as well. My thinking was that with the continuous brick wall and the transparency of the stairs, there would be some connection between the living and dining albeit not direct. Sometimes, I find with small plans that if one can achieve big chunks of spaces that are maybe fewer in number than the typical room count, the end result can be better. I also played around with the idea of a living space and a singular kitchen/dining space wherein the “table” was part of the kitchen cabinetry. Again trying to create the sense of one big space over two smaller spaces.

    Mike also had on his wish list a vestibule. I am a big fan of vestibules, especially for cold climates and even more so for small plans for two reasons. Without the vestibule, on a blustery -30 degree February Toronto day, opening the front door on such a small plan could empty the main floor of all its heat and secondly it provides that slight portion of privacy/transition whereby the pizza guy doesn’t see you entire home when you open the front door.

  • Mid America Mom

    [img]tofrstflrisland.jpg[/img]

    Hi Mike.

    :) In reality I am old school and use grid paper for all my work and transfer to paint (and not being in the business cannot justify learning and buying a cad program). There are other programs out there that people have tried that are better than microsoft paint and I think we could dig up that post if you are interested.

    This was 8. Assumptions:

    A 30″ refrigerator space. If the appliance was boxed or against a wall we may have to accommodate more “wiggle?” inch room in order to slide out any refrigerator bins within the appliance).

    Stove at standard 30″

    Drop in Double bowl sink in a 36″ cabinet (you may want to go with a 33 to increase storage in adjacent cabinet- you can find some that work *but if you do undermount check with the pros).

    Dishwasher at 24″

    I attached a diagram of the original and noticed it needed more next to the sink on the left so I adjusted. Lets see if it shows up large enough.

    Mid America Mom

  • Paul C

    Hi MAM,
    Have a look at Google’s sketch-up. Pretty cool and pretty user friendly, I am told.

  • Mid America Mom

    [img]1_tofrstflrisland.jpg[/img]

    Yikes lets see…

  • Mid America Mom

    Thanks PaulC for the suggestion! oh I like that vestibule.

    I should take time to look at a scan of grid paper since that is really where I work. Hopefully it could be saved as a decent jpeg.

    ****
    MIKE I thought we had 28 from front to back. 10 was to dining, 8 kitchen, and 10 to living. Dining could be smaller, especially if you go with a freestanding kitchen bench for the window side of the table and have people slide in and out.

    Off to bed.
    Mid America Mom

  • Stuart

    [img]mikeshouse.jpg[/img]

    Hi guys,

    So i tried a different approach by putting a galley kitchen in the middle which has the post right in the middle of the raised eating bar. It didn’t work out too well. Its pretty tight in there, probably tighter than mike would like. I also added the powder room with a floating desk on the side like Matthew and John did in their last project.

    I added some millwork by the 5′ patio doors which has a depth of 16″. Again, the space is pretty tight in the living room. It’s only 5′ from the couch to the wall, probably too tight again.

    I drew this on autocad scaling the original drawing from the pdf.

    Sorry for the late post!

  • Stuart

    PS The drawing is 3/16″= 1’0″

  • Mike

    MAM;
    yes we have roughly 28 ft, the post is 14’6″ from the back wall and 13’3″ from front wall (the post is 4″ square).
    in your sketch does the post get hidden in the dark thick black line across from the sink?

    What have you heard about L shape layouts?

    Matthew; how / where would you propose to add another 4 feet, out back? crawl space only? or at front porch? 5 feet?

    Theresa;
    thanks for your design, I unfortuantely can’t move the post.
    when I had to decide where to put it in the first place, my original design to make the side door stairs safer was to have at least 2 steps into the “hallway” and then turn down. I also thought of having the main stairs go 2 steps up to a landing then turn up. The stairs would then start 5ft out from the wall encrouching into the living area. (But satisfying the feung shui people who don’t like straight stairs at the opening).This would also alter the front closet layout.

    The model home I saw with a similar layout to yours used the sink half wall for cold air return for the main floor, they just built a 2 x 6 wall in front of the cabinets. It was a longer place so the eat in area was just a small “breakfast” area, they did also have a seperate dining room.

    I was planning on replacing the side door with a door with half glass for extra light. I would like to have the side stairs run straight up from the landing it would be much easier for framing (but as I said earlier I was planning on adding 2 steps, but if I can avoid it…) .

    The crazies who run the city have implemented new waste/recycling bins that are the size of a Toyota, working on the house I find it handy to have a side door to have access to garbage/bins.

    The windows at front and back are currently not high enough for cabinets, they would have to be altered. If at the back we opt for a slider I am OK with that. If we use/run cabinets along the north wall we could leave the window (or new slider) in the same location and just have a shallower cabinet at the end of the run (I saw this at the same model home as I mentioned earlier).

    Thanks again
    Mike

  • Terri

    MAM,
    Have you ever thought about working in kitchen design? ;) You have a good sense for layout of appliances, etc. I see that Paul C. mentioned google sketchup. I didn’t think it would be that easy to learn (there’s only so much learnin’ a brain wants to do!). But then I’m probably an older dog than you. :)

  • Terri

    Paul C,
    Thanks for your good explanation of the design process you took with this one. I agree that the front porch being partially converted to a vestibule is an excellent idea. I’m actually kind of surprised that it wasn’t done long, long ago, given the winters in Toronto. I have a friend here on the West Coast with an original Arts and Crafts home with a big front verandah, but it also has a little vestibule entry coming in from the verandah (not converted).

  • Mike

    Terri;
    what do you think about not having the front door visible like in Paul’s design?
    I have seen this type of vestibule around (I think people think I am lurking into their homes). I have also seen the front door to the vestibule in line with the current entry and then a side door (in the vestibule)going into the porch.

    any thoughts?
    Mike

  • Terri

    Hi Mike,
    I think Paul C’s version is the most streamlined (no need for the extra door onto the porch). Plus, it allows for more space to remove footwear, etc., and it doesn’t need to be centered on the wall like the front-view door should. The vestibule could be closed off by that sliding door in the evenings for privacy.

    Because we’re talking about a long, narrow vestibule and not a square, I think that a straight-on door into it would make for a little more cramped feeling. The vestibule’s front door would be centered, I presume, so that means either closet or dead space behind it and a longer, more narrow space between closet and door out to the porch.(The door to the porch would have to be an outswing to avoid a tricky confluence of doors swinging into the vestibule.)

    This is how I see it, given that you decide to use the full depth of the porch for vestibule.

    I’ve been thinking about that stair run to the basement again. I was confused on Saturday when we had the live studio, because I thought that if the three feet of landing space were converted to stairs (which is about three steps), then the overall length could be shortened the same amount, and therefore there’d be more space for John’s dining area and less conflict with the back door. One of my plans had a dining area in the same corner with the same problem of that back door. But if the steps take the right angle sooner, they’ll land further back (in my plan, pretty much in front of the central closet).

    Paul C. and Theresa showed straight runs into dining areas, which would also work. If you were to create steps into the side yard off your back deck near to that existing back door, then you could access that side yard quite easily with only a few more steps than using the side door as it is (and maybe it’d be an easier navigation without stair walls to impede your arms when you’re carrying something).

  • Mike

    thanks for your input Terri.
    The landing at the side door is approx. 3 ft. then there is another 3ft. of stairs.
    currently those 3ft are dangerous and are very tight radius for the amount of steps. To make them safer, I was thinking to extend them an extra 2 steps into the “hallway”.

  • Paul C

    [img]vest1.jpg[/img][img]vest2.jpg[/img]

    Hi Mike,
    The thinking behind the side door was driven by a couple of things. It appears from the front yard photo that there is a parking stall on the right hand side, and that it along with the existing front steps are maybe in need of an update :-). By relocating the new porch stairs to the other side (centered on the living room window) it would allow the stairs to be a bit wider, maybe deeper treads as well so they could be used as a stoop and it would afford a little bit more space to address the front yard parking. The stairs could be moved without causing a problem to the cold room window as they could remain open underneath. The idea with the vestibule is that it would be akin to a winter or glass porch, meaning that the majority of two sides would be glazing (the front and the side where the door is). This would give it a very light and transparent effect and at night it could glow. The attached images are variations on the idea.

  • BradW

    [img]shs1pland.jpg[/img]

    Hey Mike – here is a crazy idea – how about lowering the main floor to grade level from the side door back as shown in plan D concept…

  • Mike

    Paul;
    I love vestibules even in the summer as a “screened” in porch.

    One house I lived in had a similar look to your picture on the left except they were windows and the center one opened and had a screen for fresh air.
    In driving around areas, I have noticed that people with vestibules like the photo on the left do not usually have a porch to the side like I do.
    I have seen some porches with crazy designs where they try to fit in a vsetibule and only leave 1-2ft from the edge and you can barely get in the porch area.
    Most who have a porch and vestibule do put the door off to the side, but now that gets me thinking about landscaping and outdoor stairs and more!
    I presume from your plan that this is what you are proposing.

    The pictures you see are a work in progress, so yes I know the driveway needs repair, so do the stairs, railing (yes even the one in the back, even though it is 3/4″ not the flimsy 1/2″ pipe, at 2ft high I don’t think it would pass code these days.

    The side is my private driveway, it is actually 6ft wide, so a very small car could fit, it just wouldn’t be able to turn around (unless I installed a rotating platform in the back, so no backing out in the morning), not in phase one budget, perhaps phase two.

    The basement is even smaller because the foundation walls are 16-18″ thick so it closes in the entire basement even more!

    Brad I like your out of the bo x thinking but…..I never want to see another shovel after this project!

    thnx Mike

  • Mid America Mom

    Hi Mike, yes the post is incorporated in that wall behind the sink and in the one separating the hall seating to the desk/storage space.

    The actual location at 14-6 and 13-3 hum… the placement we were provided looks to be 14-0 from back and front. I also assumed that was about 8 from the north wall and 4 from the stair. That is what I planned for.

    OH error in the island dimensions. I assumed a 2*4 framing for the TV wall so that would be 4-6 Not 5-6.

    The island could less than 8. I gained you an inch with my error :) Look to shrink the sink cabinet to 33 (could go smaller if you go to a single bowl, the eating overhang to 12 (no less for comfort), and the cabinent to the right of the sink could shrink but it just would feel tight.

    I am not sure how you frame a steel post and what the finished dimensions would be… but there is plenty of room to accommodate it. The eating area in the hallway is more than the recommended 24″ width for a seated diner.

    *******
    If you go with this layout just a few more comments that are not shown on these floorplans. The island would require a corner support post for the countertop. Storage needs. I would highly suggest 42″ upper cabinets if your space can handle a 8 foot or more ceiling, a cabinet above the refrigerator, if microwave is required buy an over the stove model. I encourage you to think of using that desk/storage space as pantry.

    Mid America Mom

  • Mid America Mom

    Mike- I assumed 1/2 inch drywall and that is 4 1/2 inches not 5 1/2 inches! Sorry but a bit tired.

    *
    Anyone out there thinking I am nuts with that from a 2*4 ? Not sure if Matthew covered the sizing in his bit about the fireplace they did in the case from last week. 2*4 are more like 1 1/2 inches by 3 1/2 inches.

    *
    (TERRI thanks for the nod. I would love a job doing kitchen design. I think the BUTT test would always get a laugh!)

    *BradW still at it! When it comes to stairs I have a hard time with dimensions and clearances… I admire your thinking on it.

    Mid America Mom